D&D 4E 4E Compatible Mass Combat Rules

[lawful_stupid]

Can anyone recommend a massed combat system that will integrate into 4E combat? I would like rules for PC's spending actions and using skills to command platoon and company sized groups of soldiers. Ideally the rules will be free and relatively simple while providing enough detail to make interesting and meaningful choices. However, I would be willing to spend money on something really worthwhile. Also, some system for PC vs army combat would be great.

My players have spent several thousand gold pieces arming and training two companies of soldiers (about 300 individuals) for starting a rebellion against their king. I want to be able to offer them some encounters that bridge 4E D&D and tabletop wargaming without overloading them with pages and pages of rules.

I have thought about using the swarm rules to create Huge monsters representing platoons. Multiple Huge swarms (maybe 5 wide and 2 deep) would make an impressive side of a battle. However, 2 of these armies would make for 20 monsters which seems like it would turn into a slog.

Thanks

 

[Greyson]

I have the same question - what mass combat system allows characters to command and participate in a larger battle? My campaign is at a point where the characters may command large contingents against the North Province as it boils over the Flinty Hills in our converted Red Hand of Doom campaign. I'm not anywhere near creative enough to think of something custom.

I was thinking of somehow adapting the Mass Combat War Machine rules as presented in the old D&D Companion Rules. It has four steps. At a glance, it seems able to accommodate D&D 4E relative to a massive battle that the characters can fight as leaders. And, the War Machine appears to accommodate character level. Just not sure if it translates well to another edition.

I'll watch this thread. Maybe someone has a better solution or more insight.

 

[darjr]

I have not played, but I have heard good things about a product from One Bad Egg that is currently sold by Highmoon Media at http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/60728/OBE:-Hard-Boiled-Armies-for-D&D-4E

Also take a look at this thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?253586-Need-a-real-basic-Mass-Combat-system

good luck with your search and I hope that helps.

 

[Balesir]

I have thought about using the swarm rules to create Huge monsters representing platoons. Multiple Huge swarms (maybe 5 wide and 2 deep) would make an impressive side of a battle. However, 2 of these armies would make for 20 monsters which seems like it would turn into a slog.

That might depend how you design the "monsters". Thinking about a similar problem, what I thought of doing was giving the 'swarms' a close burst attack (all enemies) that has an Effect to do damage (about 2/3 of "normal") and a DR against such attacks to represent armour/hide. Give the damage a good die spread, and you have something like the old "Battlesystem" rules, more or less, but scaled to 4E. For attacks from characters, etc., the usual swarm rules apply.

 

[D'karr]

Give the damage a good die spread, and you have something like the old "Battlesystem" rules, more or less, but scaled to 4E. For attacks from characters, etc., the usual swarm rules apply.

When the swarm gets to "bloodied" you can have rules to attempt to route it. Successful intimidate check vs. Will causes a route. If there is a "leader" within X squares of the swarm use the higher of the swarm or leader defense. As an alternate an intimidate check that is higher than the swarm but lower than the leader's Will can impose a penalty on the swarm (use prone as a base). A successful intimidate from the Leader can also rally a swarm that has not moved more than X squares from the leader.

You can come up with all kinds of fun mechanics to do mass combat battles.

 

[pemerton]

I've done quite a bit of "swarm" stuff: phalanxes of hobgoblins, flights of vrocks, etc. But never full-fledged mass combat.

If you were going to try to run it just as a version of ordinary combat, than [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION]'s advice about Initimidation seems solid. I'd also look at using Diplomacy checks to rally friendly units (restore hp, give +2 on next attack, or something similar). And I'd suggest allowing the players to make one of these "command" checks for free each turn in addition to their normal suite of actions.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I've been working on and off on something like this and just not got around to finishing it as of yet...sorry.

But the backbone of the idea is simply converting mass units into single stat-blocks (like a swarm). The conversion rate seems to work out at +6 Levels for each x10 multiplier.

ie. Single Orc Warrior = Level 3 Soldier

Unit of 10 Orc Warriors = Level 9 Soldier (or Level 5 Elite Soldier)
Unit of 100 Orc Warriors = Level 15 Soldier (or Level 11 Elite, or Level 6 Solo)
Unit of 1000 Orc Warriors = Level 21 Soldier (or Level 17 Elite, or Level 12 Solo)
Unit of 10,000 Orc Warriors = Level 27 Soldier (or Level 23 Elite, or Level 18 Solo)

So you simply convert the original stat-block into whichever rank is closest to your needs (party level).

e.g. For a Level 12 party a Unit of 100 Orcs best converts to the Elite rank (Level 11 in this case).

Naturally each UNIT has a few new traits. I already added morale rules in my Vampire Bestiary. I have some other stuff for troop formations. Leader types (including minimum level for commanding certain sized forces). Terrain advantages and so forth. I should really just add it all to the website.

My initial goal was to replicate (the battle of) Thermopylae.

 

[Balesir]

I've been working on and off on something like this and just not got around to finishing it as of yet...sorry.

Well, get to work with you *crack*!

But the backbone of the idea is simply converting mass units into single stat-blocks (like a swarm). The conversion rate seems to work out at +6 Levels for each x10 multiplier.

A problem with that is that there is already a mechanism whereby 4 of a creature are worth +8 levels (minions work this way with the experience budget setup). That would make 10 creatures about +13 or +14 levels. Later minions are suggested to be 5-for-1 rather than 4-for-1; that would make it around +11 to +12 levels for 10. But maybe that would be a sound basis in itself?

 

[lawful_stupid]

I bought and read the Hardboiled Armies supplement that was recommended. There was some good stuff, but the thrust of their concept is to represent armies on a battlegrid as a single miniature. It does not address my need to have two armies and my PC's in the same encounter interacting with each other.

I am going to take basic monsters and add the swarm attributes (half damage from melee and ranged, vulnerable 10 vs bust, blast, and area) and and an appropriate aura. I will put one representative mini on a 3" x 3" square of construction paper to represent a squad of about 20-25. When the squad is bloodied, they become weakened to represent troop attrition.

I want to add a morale check against bloodied squads, but I cannot decide on the frequency, nature, and difficulty of the check. Some kind of attack vs Will defense seems to make the most sense. The PC's can make intimidate checks to rout, but what does an opposing army do to rout them? Do damage? That seems like too many chances to rout (and too many extra die rolls). Crits seem like a good time to roll. Maybe use a damage threshold.

Other ideas:

-Morale checks for the PC's forces will be against the better of the squad's Will defense and a PC's Intimidate or Diplomacy check.
-Some larger monsters like giants will be individuals like the PC's, but I might have squads of ogres on 5" x 5" templates
-Armies are not heroes. Short rest takes a day. Extended rest takes a week.
-Archer, wizard, and healer squads will be powerful
-I will limit close burst and blast powers for frontline troops so that they have a slower battle of attrition effect. The aura plus burst and blasts will be too much. Our sorcerer is going to be terrifying.

 

[lawful_stupid]

Just had another idea. Wizard, healer, and archer squads have to make a morale check on any melee damage. I am thinking that I can play a lot of the morale checks for melee troops by ear. Do a lot of damage. Check. Impose a powerful condition. Check. Flank a squad. Check.

Routed condition: Double move away from combat at a run. Grant combat Advantage even before your turn allows you to run.

Rally: Leader (PC's and some NPC's) within 10 squares makes a Diplomacy or Intimidate check that meets or exceeds the squad's Will defense

If a squad gets to the edge of the battlemat, we count rounds of movement off of the battlefield. After 1 round off of the battlefield, a squad can make a save vs rout with modifiers based on the situation on a battlefield. A squad is not going to rally themselves to run back into a slaughter.