4e Cosmology Changes

[malraux]

The Wheel structure was always just a conceptual diagram of the planes. They didn't have hard physical boundaries (just perhaps a tendency to have more gates to "adjacent" planes than others). There are no clearly defined spaces with multiple unbound and infinite planes like those of the Outer Planes of the Great Wheel. They're more bound in 4e's Astral Sea (being all collapsed into what amounts to demiplanes within the Astral Sea).

Umm, the outer planes were all connected. The river Styx flowed throughout the lower planes, and I forget the upper planes' river. The modrons literally walk across all planes every few hundred years.

Similarly, the inner planes all connected, resulting in the para-elemental planes.

 

[Anguirus]

I'm a fan of the new cosmology, it seems much more classical and flexible than the old one.

Although perhaps the best part is that they aren't tied to spellcasting anymore, so you can use whatever planes you please without changing the rules.

 

[Shemeska]

Umm, the outer planes were all connected. The river Styx flowed throughout the lower planes, and I forget the upper planes' river. The modrons literally walk across all planes every few hundred years.

The Styx didn't physically travel between planes in the way you're thinking (it wasn't a river flowing between states with hard, defined borders in any way), it had portions that transitioned by way of what amounted to gates inherent to its own structure. You've travel along the Styx, hit some rapids, and suddenly you were in Carceri as opposed to the Waste. You didn't see Carceri approaching like a bordering nation while you were in the Waste however. Oceanus worked the same way on the upper planes.

The modrons walked yes, but they still used gates/portals/etc to move from plane to plane.

The 1e/2e/3e inner planes had regions of overlap, but where themselves still infinite. 4e has them all mixed together like an elemental soup as far as I can tell. It's destructive change from what I've read.

 

[Spatula]

Although perhaps the best part is that they aren't tied to spellcasting anymore, so you can use whatever planes you please without changing the rules.

Well, to the same extent that you always could. Radiant powers come from the astral plane, necrotic powers draw from the plane of shadow, eladrin fey-step through the faerie realm, and so on.

 

[malraux]

The Styx didn't physically travel between planes in the way you're thinking (it wasn't a river flowing between states with hard, defined borders in any way), it had portions that transitioned by way of what amounted to gates inherent to its own structure. You've travel along the Styx, hit some rapids, and suddenly you were in Carceri as opposed to the Waste. You didn't see Carceri approaching like a bordering nation while you were in the Waste however. Oceanus worked the same way on the upper planes.

Hmm, must be one of the 2e to 3e changes. But page 86 of the 3e Manual of the Planes say that you can directly walk from one outer plane to either of its neighbors.

 

[Spatula]

Yes, and how do you walk out of one infinite space and into another? Each space extends infinitely in all directions.
(see Shemeska's previous posts for the answer)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yes, and how do you walk out of one infinite space and into another? Each space extends infinitely in all directions.
(see Shemeska's previous posts for the answer)

Running very fast?

I once heard that the Great Wheel was just a "shorthand" philosophers and arcanists used to describe the planes, and that it didn't have much to do with any actual "planar geopgraphy". If you take that idea, PoL settings might just not be there yet where the Great Wheel was invented or useful - the factions of Planescape don't exist yet, and thus there is no need to "map" them as a Great Wheel.

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I really like the new cosmology. Especially the Feywild was an instant win for me. A plane of feys just on the other side of the mirror, so to speak? Just a step orthogonal to space, and you're there? If you're not careful while traveling he woods, you might stumble in the Feywild? Feys that might steal your children at night?

So much potential. So much flair.
The Ethreal, Shadow and Astral Planes never felt that interesting too me.

And then there's also the Shadowfell...

And the Astral Sea? Depending how you see it, the space could be the Astral Sea, and every Astral Dominion might be one of the "dots" in the night sky. The Elemental Chaos could be below the surface, if you dig deep enough, even beyond the Underdark, beyond the core of your world, you might find a world full of lava and water rivers floating through air, whirlwinds and rocks inhabitated by strange creature. And if you go even deeper, you might find the real Abyss, a place of eternal destruction, chaos, evil and creation...

Fascinating.

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If there's something I might miss, I think there might be some room for a "Dream Plane", maybe a plane where psionics and ki come from. A plane that doesn't exist out there, but in our heads, in our unconcious. Maybe a plane from where we get wherever we want, but we might not find our way back. A plane where all our dreams can come true, but all our worries and fears can manifest. And if we are not careful, what is inside our heads can come out...

Or... Should this be the "truth" behind the Far Realms? That it's not far at all, that it's inside us?

 

[Henrix]

I loved the old cosmology, and Planescape, but I think the new is very sweet!

And I don't think that it interferes particularily much with the old - the main things to remember is that The Great Wheel is an ideology of the Fraternity of Order that has won a lot of acceptance among planars, and that the Feywild and Shadowfell are mostly seen as quaint bits of the Prime that most planars don't bother much with.

 

[Mercule]

Hmm, must be one of the 2e to 3e changes. But page 86 of the 3e Manual of the Planes say that you can directly walk from one outer plane to either of its neighbors.

Only if 2e changed it from 1e. In 1e, the planes were infinite and mundane means of travel would not let you jump planes w/o some permanent gateway.

The Styx just happens to be one of those permanent gateways.

 

[FourthBear]

Also, it seems as though if you start breaking down the connections between the various planes of the Great Wheel, you're really getting closer and closer to the current set up with the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos, where the planes have no particular relationship to each other. What with the Plane of Concordant Opposition and the various gate towns in Planescape, it seems to me that the planes being related to each other in a fairly straightforward way is one of the defining factors.

I'll note that there was a third party 3e publication, Beyond Countless Doorways that dealt a lot with plane hopping in a Planescape sort of way. I mainly note it because when reading it I noticed that the majority of the planes described really didn't fit well anywhere in the Great Wheel cosmology.