4e Creatures, Not Scary?
- Thread starter SlyFlourish
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
Sorry, but I see this as an example of good design.....and I am not a fan of 4e.
RC
RC
thecasualoblivion
First Post
4E isn't about POWAH!!! Its about control. The scariest monsters are the ones that exert the most control. Same with PC abilities for that matter.
Henry
Autoexreginated
If I might make another observation... that 3d8+7 damage lich is also probably doing things like dazing, or controlling, or slowing, or any number of status conditions... and he has a few hundred hit points himself, which means he's not going down like a chump in 1 round, either. So, that 1/10 of his hit points doesn't sound mean, until he's done it to two different characters five rounds in a row, and he's using status effects to drive others nuts in the fight.
As a DM, 4e is all about loving the slow burn.
Usually, the stress point in a 4e fight comes from a series of events, rather than a single die roll. It might end with one die roll, but you get there via a sequence of attacks and rolls.
Ghouls are my absolute favorite monster type right now. I've painted up a bunch of metal ones, and I've been noodling with some new variations on them. They epitomize the slow burn in action.
When a ghoul hits a PC, he's immobilized and vulnerable to the ghoul's bite. The tension for the player comes from his save. He also gets to attack, giving him the chance to do something to hinder the ghoul or maybe kill it before its next turn. On the ghoul's next turn, if the PC blew his save there's a nasty attack incoming. That attack still has to hit, and if it does the PC's next save might be, in essence, a save versus dropping to 0 on the ghoul's next turn.
IME, that ebb and flow is where the fear of monsters comes into play. Even if the ghoul misses, it has enough hit points that the players know its going to get in a few shots before they can take it out. You have more chances to enter that "tension loop." On top of that, since you can have several ghouls in a fight, you have even more chances to send a PC down the short road to ghoul chow-dom.
So, you have a lot of tension, but it builds up over time rather than resolving on one roll.
Usually, the stress point in a 4e fight comes from a series of events, rather than a single die roll. It might end with one die roll, but you get there via a sequence of attacks and rolls.
Ghouls are my absolute favorite monster type right now. I've painted up a bunch of metal ones, and I've been noodling with some new variations on them. They epitomize the slow burn in action.
When a ghoul hits a PC, he's immobilized and vulnerable to the ghoul's bite. The tension for the player comes from his save. He also gets to attack, giving him the chance to do something to hinder the ghoul or maybe kill it before its next turn. On the ghoul's next turn, if the PC blew his save there's a nasty attack incoming. That attack still has to hit, and if it does the PC's next save might be, in essence, a save versus dropping to 0 on the ghoul's next turn.
IME, that ebb and flow is where the fear of monsters comes into play. Even if the ghoul misses, it has enough hit points that the players know its going to get in a few shots before they can take it out. You have more chances to enter that "tension loop." On top of that, since you can have several ghouls in a fight, you have even more chances to send a PC down the short road to ghoul chow-dom.
So, you have a lot of tension, but it builds up over time rather than resolving on one roll.
thecasualoblivion
First Post
I've used ghouls to do exactly this. Plaguechanged Ghouls from the FRCG in particular cause abject terror when they hit the table.
Obryn
Hero
As a 4e DM, this is exactly what I've found. In other words, you've accomplished that design goal outside the fortress.
In 3e, players got the "Aw, crap, we're SCREWED!" feeling usually in the very first round, and it's a sudden panic. Say, that a big bad dropped the party's cleric in one round, or the party's mage needs a 19+ to beat his SR. By the time the players figure it out, it's often too late, and running means leaving behind the corpse of a comrade or two.
In 4e, the panic grows steadily... "We're out of healing this combat, and they just keep coming! Retreat!"
If you value the sudden shock over the slow build, it's bad. I like the slow build for D&D. (But not for my Call of Cthulhu games)
-O
Shroomy
Adventurer
Its interesting that you bring up ghouls, in one session, my character made his Religion check so I could apply my meta-game knowledge (having read the MM) and I spent the entire combat running away from the one ghoul (I even fey step'd over to the enemies airship to get away). There was no way I was going to get bit.
Ltheb Silverfrond
Explorer
The monster 'scare' of 4E is not in the individual monster. Sure, a Bodak can kill you if certain conditions are met, and the basilisk is pretty nasty on its own. But the scare in 4E comes from the combination of monsters. See 1 ghoul? Worry. See 4 Ghouls, and a Wight? Run away!
Also, come of the monster 'scare' isn't so much the power of the foe, but the potential. In a session I ran, the PCs 'thought' they were going to get the jump on a lich and a 'couple of his minions'. In reality, the lich knew they were coming, and his minions included a Devourer and a Devil (Names escape me, the CR ~15 ones). The PCs were convinced the lich was the biggest threat, and spent our 1 hour pizza break formulating the most optimal plans of attack for a quick-kill on the lich. Cut to the fight: Lich does go down fast, despite being an elite, but the Devourer munched on the swordmage pretty bad, and by the end of the fight, the party had to let the devil escape, because they were too weakened to continue the fight.
I am willing to bet throwing some mind flayers into a combat will have PCs doing everything in their power to stay out of melee range, even if the brain-eating power isn't terribly potent by the numbers.
Also, come of the monster 'scare' isn't so much the power of the foe, but the potential. In a session I ran, the PCs 'thought' they were going to get the jump on a lich and a 'couple of his minions'. In reality, the lich knew they were coming, and his minions included a Devourer and a Devil (Names escape me, the CR ~15 ones). The PCs were convinced the lich was the biggest threat, and spent our 1 hour pizza break formulating the most optimal plans of attack for a quick-kill on the lich. Cut to the fight: Lich does go down fast, despite being an elite, but the Devourer munched on the swordmage pretty bad, and by the end of the fight, the party had to let the devil escape, because they were too weakened to continue the fight.
I am willing to bet throwing some mind flayers into a combat will have PCs doing everything in their power to stay out of melee range, even if the brain-eating power isn't terribly potent by the numbers.
You guys are right about the slow burn vs the sudden shock. I like the sudden shock aspect.
In one of my 3.5 games I had a sequence before the party of level 13s went into an ancient drow temple now taken over by a vampire drow shadowcaster gal (this was a modification of City of the Spider Queen). I had a big monologue about how their time thus far was a cake walk compared to the horrors within the tower. The party laughed and kicked in the door. The rogue was disintegrated on the first turn by a beholder lich.
He wasn't screwed. We had some magic devices that can bring people back even from disintegration, but it took time and the battles were really hard. That sudden shock of seeing a character turned to ash is something I'll miss.
There is no doubt a fear factor found with a group of powerful creatures but I haven't really seen a single scary creature yet, at least in stats. I think my group's tactical skill is better than mine as a DM and that hurts a little bit. I could learn to play better I think.
The ghoul's ability is a great example of how to have that fear going on even though it isn't a save or die.
I wonder how the upcoming Open Grave will handle Demi-liches, one of the truely fearful mobs.
I guess there's just a part of me that misses the devastatingly painful creatures. I know that design-wise the new way makes sense, I just miss it a little.
In one of my 3.5 games I had a sequence before the party of level 13s went into an ancient drow temple now taken over by a vampire drow shadowcaster gal (this was a modification of City of the Spider Queen). I had a big monologue about how their time thus far was a cake walk compared to the horrors within the tower. The party laughed and kicked in the door. The rogue was disintegrated on the first turn by a beholder lich.
He wasn't screwed. We had some magic devices that can bring people back even from disintegration, but it took time and the battles were really hard. That sudden shock of seeing a character turned to ash is something I'll miss.
There is no doubt a fear factor found with a group of powerful creatures but I haven't really seen a single scary creature yet, at least in stats. I think my group's tactical skill is better than mine as a DM and that hurts a little bit. I could learn to play better I think.
The ghoul's ability is a great example of how to have that fear going on even though it isn't a save or die.
I wonder how the upcoming Open Grave will handle Demi-liches, one of the truely fearful mobs.
I guess there's just a part of me that misses the devastatingly painful creatures. I know that design-wise the new way makes sense, I just miss it a little.
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