4e Creatures, Not Scary?

[delericho]

The protagonist never dies on action movies... there's no danger around those movies

Arnie 'dies' in "End of Days", so it's not totally unheard-of.

Still, it is extremely rare.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The protagonist never dies on action movies... there's no danger around those movies

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

 

[Runestar]

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

At least, they never die when it truly counts from the perspective of the BBEG. By the time they do die, the day has probably been saved, the enemies have been defeated, or they are sacrificing their lives for some meaningful event. Which still contributes to saving the day one way or another.

 

[delericho]

At least, they never die when it truly counts from the perspective of the BBEG. By the time they do die, the day has probably been saved, the enemies have been defeated, or they are sacrificing their lives for some meaningful event. Which still contributes to saving the day one way or another.

Well, no, because if they did die in such a manner, they wouldn't be the protagonist, almost by definition.

Examples where the character who should have been the protagonist dies include Steven Segal's character in "Executive Decision" and the marines (I think) in "The Rock".

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Death and the threat of death is slightly different in 4E.

In 3.5E, a lot of things monsters could do could kill YOU and you specifically.

In 4E, the big danger is the TPK. Its a LOT easier to TPK than it is to have one character die.

 

[malraux]

It's like I've said since 4e came out. It plays a lot different than it reads. I've seen more hp loss and more dropping-to-zero-hp in 4e than I ever saw in 3.5. Less death, overall, granted, but more "holy crap, this is a difficult fight."

For a couple of levels, my players were scared of elven archers.

This matches my experience pretty well. Its a rare fight when at least one character doesn't drop below 0 (and thats with both a cleric and a warlord in the party). I think that 4e has made it slightly harder to die, but its a lot easier to get close to death.

 

[Obryn]

This matches my experience pretty well. Its a rare fight when at least one character doesn't drop below 0 (and thats with both a cleric and a warlord in the party). I think that 4e has made it slightly harder to die, but its a lot easier to get close to death.

Yeah, the cleric in my group used to work overtime to get every drop of healing he could. The party's Fighter or Swordmage would have his HPs yo-yo over the course of a battle, going from 3 to 28 to 6 to 19 ... and so on.

When a new player made a Warlord, it made a big difference.

-O

 

[Filcher]

Well you get action points to emulate the burst damage/scary things.

In my version of KotS, the hobgoblins were lead by a elite. The players had already interrogated a few goblins and a hobgoblins, so they had heard of this Chief WhatshisName. They knew he was a bad-ass. So when they were approching what they thought to be his lair, they sent the superstealthy rogue to scout and see if there was an ambush. For once, the rogue failed his stealth, and coming around a corner, the Chief charged right into the surprised rogue and hit him hard with his bastard sword (that was the surprise round). Initiative. Chief WhatshisName won it, and started. Double attack (he is an elite after all). Action point. Double attack. Permadead player. Not even a death save he got. Went straight to more than minus bloodied. And this was not some crazy sick monster that was higher level. Players were 3rd or 4th level, and the Chief was one level higher (and elite).

Awesome. Love this anecdote.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You guys are right about the slow burn vs the sudden shock. I like the sudden shock aspect.

I'm kind of with you there. But I think you can still have it in 4e, it just doesn't come from raw dice of damage. It's not quite like the real world where a sudden unexpected attack can kill you before you know what's happening.

It's a basic narrative kind of thing:

You need something to open combat that will "hook" them, that will set the stage, get the action rolling, and make them want to continue.

In a lot of ways, that comes from the narrative -- the moment the first attack roll is made, it's sudden and abrupt and sets the stage.

You might also want to try more ambushes or traps -- approaching from unexpected angles or having surprising enemies or otherwise just being a sudden "woah!" moment.

Then, the players react.

Then, the monsters react to that reaction.

At about round 5-8, bust out the CLIMAX, and call it good.

FFZ combat is a bit more "swingy" in that respect, but FFZ is about the rhythm of attack and defense -- if you don't use defense, you're going to leave yourself vulnerable, and your own defenses won't last forever.

D&D tension comes from constant attacks rather than a canny rythym, in that regard.

 

[davethegame]

I know this doesn't sound helpful and sounds like common sense on the surface, but I feel compelled to point it out anyway.

The monster rules are not necessary to scare the players. If you want the badass Lich to be scary and have the players run, make it happen. Have them destroy the scenery. Have radiating waves of fear pass over the players. Etc.

I ran an adventure a few months ago where the players emerged from a dungeon to be confronted by the big brother of the dragon they had killed. I set up the players' minis on the table, and put down the gargantuan blue dragon miniature. The players looked at each other, but assumed it was just another fight that they could win, though they started to look nervous. As it became clear they were standing their ground, I had the dragon go. The PC out front was picked up by the dragon, and thrown against a tree. I rolled damage (using pg. 42), and that's when they decided to run. I didn't reference the dragon's stats at all. (Then the skill challenge to escape from the dragon in the woods commenced that I had planned on.)

If I had used the dragon's stats, it might have been disappointing for the reasons mentioned... not a one claw hit kill (which is not what I wanted to happen anyway.) This way, just by a show of force and some description, the monster was fearsome.