4e Creatures, Not Scary?

[Jack99]

I ran an adventure a few months ago where the players emerged from a dungeon to be confronted by the big brother of the dragon they had killed. I set up the players' minis on the table, and put down the gargantuan blue dragon miniature. The players looked at each other, but assumed it was just another fight that they could win, though they started to look nervous. As it became clear they were standing their ground, I had the dragon go. The PC out front was picked up by the dragon, and thrown against a tree. I rolled damage (using pg. 42), and that's when they decided to run. I didn't reference the dragon's stats at all. (Then the skill challenge to escape from the dragon in the woods commenced that I had planned on.)

Nice idea.

 

[Dragonbait]

My friend recently asked me: What D&D monster do you find the most frightening?
I struggled to give him an answer, and eventually said: Beholder, by default.
Nothing in previous editions filled me with player fear. Monsters did the "save or die. You're dead instantly." And that was always anticlimactic. 50/50. If you didn't die immediately, you probably will kill them in 3 rounds, provided they are appropriate level and not invisble or ethereal (in which case it takes 6 rounds).

Now that I'm playing 4ed, I'd say: Duergar and anything with them.
Hardest damn fights where at least one character is Ko'ed. Every. Single. Time. We typically win (well.. Up until the TPK that ended the last session) but its so dicey and we don't really know if we are going to win or not. Death does not come quickly with a single failed roll against these monsters. Death is slow and agonizing and you may or may not take something with you, and you may or may not really die.

 

[MrMyth]

So what do you do to make these iconic monsters more scary?

I know what you are talking about - I recall in 3rd Edition, there were a lot of melee monsters that even the Fighters were unwilling to get close to, since a full round would drop any character straight to dead! Nowadays, they know nothing has they ability, so they always wade right in.

...but I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. 4E doesn't want characters to just pop. They don't want monsters who hit so hard that no one can stand next to them. They don't want spells that just wipe out half the party. And I never really enjoyed playing a dude in full plate who got to sit back and throw axes at giants, because he knew if he walked into melee he would die.

This doesn't mean fights can't be hard - it just means the fear tends to kick in after a round or two, as the party watches their hitpoints rapidly vanishing, faster then they can handle.

If your party is shrugging off the attacks of Great Wyrms or Beholders and instantly beating them down, then I suspect you have a very effective party fighting against easy or standard encounters. The Beholder has some brutal eye rays and is firing off half a dozen each round! A Great Wyrm White Dragon can drop a completely healthy fighter in a single round.

I'm running a game currently at 10th level, and had the party fighting an NPC Elite Troll Warlock. He dropped the party barbarian in the first round of combat (cursing him, spending a Daily, then spending an Action Point for his biggest Encounter Power.) That gave the party serious pause.

But you don't see combats that start with one spell dropping half the party, followed by the surviving half nuking (and killing) the enemy, and the combat being over by the second or third round.

The other thing to keep in mind (which some others in this thread have mention) - scary is now determined by the challenge the party faces, not what that challenge is. A level 10 solo dragon isn't supposed to be more difficult than a group of level ogres. A level 15 lich isn't supposed to be scarier than a level 15 wizard.

If you want a fight to be scary, make it higher level than the party. You don't need to go absurd - just recognize that a standard fight is a standard fight, and a hard fight is a hard fight, and you shouldn't expect some enemies to be inherently more powerful than other enemies of their level.

Finally - in 3rd Edition, the big bad lich was often a single enemy in a fight (if he was of the party's level.) So compare his 20d6 Fireball to the output of 2.5 Liches in 4E - and more importantly, compare it to their actual area effect spell, which does 6d6+7 damage. Average damage times 2.5 = 70 damage, identical to the average damage from 20d6!

So, let's say we have a 4 person party up against 2 of these guys. Round one, the Liches drop 50+ damage on the party, and Action Point to throw their Necrotic Orbs that do another 3d8+7 to one PC... and stun them.

Sure, they might not hit with all this, but you are looking at taking away half the party's hp and stunning half the PCs. That is pretty brutal, especially if those powers start recharging.

I think the real issue isn't even the dichotomy of 4E vs 3rd Edition, it is a difficulty in actually weighing the numbers. 6d6+7 looks smaller than 20d6... but it still significant, especially since it is coming from only one portion of the encounter. Keeping that in mind can go a long way towards realizing monsters can still be a big threat, without needing to one-shot PCs whenever they win initiative.

 

[Celtavian]

re

The hardest encounters we've experienced seem to be elites (usually a controller) with help. Solos are too easy to kill and non-elite monsters are ridiculously easy to kill.

I agree. Monsters aren't scary anymore. They are at first. My friends and I would read through the Monster Manual and ooh and ah over monsters that appeared tough. Then we would fight them and with all the powers players get, they turned out to be too easy.

Monsters stopped scaring us around lvl 3. We now smash just about everything we face.

 

[Spatula]

I wonder how the upcoming Open Grave will handle Demi-liches, one of the truely fearful mobs.

Demiliches are scary? "Oooh I'm an invulnerable skull that steals souls! You'd better not come into my lair... No wait, please come into my lair, I can't move or... do much of anything, really. Please? ...I'm so lonely."
(well that was the 1e demilich, I don't recall the 3e version)

 

[malraux]

Another thing about 4e creatures is a player has no idea what the creature they are about to fight can do. Yeah, its a simple goblin, but irontooth shows that being a goblin doesn't stop you from scaring parties. I think the flexible monster creation rules can help keep a party in suspense.

For example, if I describe a fast moving undead headed toward you, you'll think wight or ghoul, but not this guy.
[sblock]Entomber Level Elite 6 Soldier
Medium Natural Humanoid (Undead) XP 500
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +9;
HP 138; Bloodied 69
AC 24; Fortitude 19, Reflex 20, Will 18
Speed 7
Saving Throws +2
Action Points 1
M Slam (standard; at-will)
+13 vs AC; 1d10 + 4 damage and Followup Attack: Entomb
m Entomb (standard; at-will)
+11 vs Reflex; 2d8+5 damage and Target restrained. Target escapes as though from a grab. First success moves to grabbed. Second target is free.
Dancing on your grave (Move; Recharges when successfully hits with Entomb)
The Entomber shifts 4 squares
Str 19 (+7) Dex 16 (+6) Wis 16 (+6)
Con 13 (+4) Int 13 (+4) Cha 13 (+4)[/sblock]
Sure, its a converted 3e monster, but its so easy to do, I'd hop it happens more.

 

[jgbrowning]

Another thing about 4e creatures is a player has no idea what the creature they are about to fight can do.

But they probably know that they can kill it anyway. It's highly unlikely to be be more than +4 levels, and even that's really only a possibility if the party's at full health.

Sure the above thinking is metagaming, but that's part of the game as well, IMO.

joe b.

 

[Roger]

Another thing about 4e creatures is a player has no idea what the creature they are about to fight can do.

Monster knowledge checks are your friend. PHB pg 180.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Nebulous]

If I had used the dragon's stats, it might have been disappointing for the reasons mentioned... not a one claw hit kill (which is not what I wanted to happen anyway.) This way, just by a show of force and some description, the monster was fearsome.

Nice man. The official D&D/DMG rules need to give examples of this play by play for DMs. Ad-hoc rules can be really hard to do, but are ultimately the most rewarding aspects of rpgs.

 

[SlyFlourish]

The monster rules are not necessary to scare the players. If you want the badass Lich to be scary and have the players run, make it happen. Have them destroy the scenery. Have radiating waves of fear pass over the players. Etc.

Hi Dave!

But what happens when all of that storytelling fear turns into a lich firing a pea-shooter that just annoys people? I just don't see the lich as written being very exciting in combat and a creature that isn't exciting in combat is going to be a let-down when you try to explain his great power.

Too often in 4e I've given the party the "this is clearly the most dangerous foe you have faced" and then they kill him in three rounds.

Granted, playing 4 levels higher might work better. I bet a 24th level dragon is a lot tougher with level 20 PCs.