D&D 4E 4E d20 Superheroes - I want that too!

[drjones]

To me, the tiers would be more like Mini-Series, Own Series, and They Make Underoos of You.

You gotta work the scrub levels though, for every Superman there should be 50 guys in ill-fitting costumes and poorly realized themes working the kinks out. Call it 'The Tick' tier.

 

[Vigilance]

There are lots of Superhero games out there. Champions, Sentinals, DC, Marvel, Heros unlimited, Gurps, M&M, V&V, and a few other obscure ones.

One of those games uses a class based system. What does that tell you?

The vast majority of games period are non-class based period.

The reason for this, in my opinion, is the huge shadow cast by D&D over RPGs, where most games try to reach out to an audience looking for something different in some ways, like not liking classes.

Still, Dr. Stange and Dr. Fate have a lot in common, as do the Human Torch and Starfire, and Cyborg and Colossus.

What does that tell you?

I realize I'm in the minority on the subject. Most supers gamers see classes and go "ewwww".

But a class based system would work fine for supers, as well as it does for fantasy.

And while I agree that a very playable supers game could be made by "a flexible class based system" once you have enough selections (Role, power source, powers, etc) you're fooling yourself if you really think you've got classes instead of a point based system with the numbers filed off.

Yes, but that's what all classes are.

An archetype gets common abilities in pre-packaged chunks.

It's no different for a barbarian class than it is for a Dark Knight class or a Blaster class.

"Brick" for example is one of the more common archetypes, but they vary all the way from Capt. America who is only slightly above human max, to the Hulk who can chuck a battleship into orbit, to Thor who tacks on a bunch of weather control powers, to Superman who is as strong and tough as anyone, as fast as any speedster, has heat beams and cold breath on par with any blaster, etc. Multiclassed character? Gestalt? DMNPC?

In the first place, Id say Cap is in the Acrobat class along with Daredevil myself.

In the second place, Thor and Superman are extremely high level characters, multiclassed into Brick and Energy Projector.

And yes, a character like Supes, or Thor, is hard to place in a game, but that doesn't mean classes are the problem. I've seen point based games struggle to handle them too.

This kind of flexibility is very hard to achieve. That's no small part of the reason why there are so many supers games. It's even harder if party balance is one of your goals. Classes do very little to aid those goals.

Classes also dont hinder those goals.

First, you make classes based on arcjetypes just like you do in fantasy: Blaster, Acrobat, Brick, Scientist, Leader, Psychic etc.

Then you make powers a separate sub-system like d20's skills.

Add in flexible multi-classing and you're all set.

And since you mentioned party balance, classes make that easier.

They also make party creation easier, since you can spot niches and needs of the group at a glance.

Sorry, Ive given this a lot of thought.

Classes work as well for supers as they do for fantasy.

Which brings it to personal choice.

 

[pawsplay]

It would be very difficult to balance a 1st level Kryptonian and a 15th level kung fu sidekick, and fulfill your simulation goals.

It's true that City of Heroes uses a class based system, but of course a server has more limits to what it can portray than the imagination so the designers had little choice, really.

That had a lot to do with their design goals. During beta, there were essentially no restrictions on who could take what powers, but they wanted to formalize what would be natural "builds" (i.e. classes) and make it harder to cherry-pick.

 

[WalterKovacs]

It would be very difficult to balance a 1st level Kryptonian and a 15th level kung fu sidekick, and fulfill your simulation goals.

First of all, a level 1 Kryptonian would have no idea how to use his powers, and likely not have been on Earth long enough to actually develop all of them throuh a lifetime of yellow sun absorption. And of course "simulation" and "balance" are pretty much opposites. In general, a perfectly balanced party doesn't make any sense from a simulation point of view ...

Or they just have Kryptonian have similar level adjustments to some of the "playable" races in the Monster Manual [8 hit dice and 8 extra levels]. In 4E type system, they'd spread the racial benefits over time. You start off strong and tough, you get the speed, the flight, the heat vision, the cold breath, the super senses, etc ... over time by taking feats, or getting them as powers as part of the race/class hybrid, etc.

 

[pawsplay]

First of all, a level 1 Kryptonian would have no idea how to use his powers, and likely not have been on Earth long enough to actually develop all of them throuh a lifetime of yellow sun absorption. And of course "simulation" and "balance" are pretty much opposites. In general, a perfectly balanced party doesn't make any sense from a simulation point of view ...

Or they just have Kryptonian have similar level adjustments to some of the "playable" races in the Monster Manual [8 hit dice and 8 extra levels]. In 4E type system, they'd spread the racial benefits over time. You start off strong and tough, you get the speed, the flight, the heat vision, the cold breath, the super senses, etc ... over time by taking feats, or getting them as powers as part of the race/class hybrid, etc.

So are members of the Brick class always LA-adjusted nonhumans?

 

[Andor]

I don't mean to be snarky but there really are a lot of problems with class based supers. Do classes describe power sets or power sources? Why can the human torch fly, but not Pyro? Why can Iceman make Ice armour, but not Storm? For the sake of dicussion gimme hypothetical classes for the following characters please as well as a place on a 1-20 level scale.

Shadowcat
Capt. America
Spider-Man
Nightcrawler
Wolverine
Storm
The Punisher
Batman
Iron-Man
SuperMan
Thor
John Constantine
Green Lantern
Dr. Doom
Mr Fantastic
Iceman
Warlock
Beastboy
Puck
Aquaman

 

[Vigilance]

I don't mean to be snarky but there really are a lot of problems with class based supers. Do classes describe power sets or power sources?

Neither. Powers are separate from classes.

Why can the human torch fly, but not Pyro? Why can Iceman make Ice armour, but not Storm?

I have no eathly idea.

As I said, you work powers like skills.

Why can one thief be ultra-stealthy but not another?

Why can one thief max out his Acrobatics while another maxes out Diplomacy?

For the sake of dicussion gimme hypothetical classes for the following characters please as well as a place on a 1-20 level scale.

Um, ok. But really, I dont think it will do any good. It seems to me your mind is really made up and that's fine.

Shadowcat: Acrobat, 10.
Capt. America: Brick/Acrobat 10/10
Spider-Man: Acrobat 20
Nightcrawler: Acrobat 15
Wolverine: Brick 20
Storm: Energy Projector/Acrobat 15/5
The Punisher: Brick 15
Batman: Acrobat 30
Iron-Man: Brick/Energy Projector 10/10
SuperMan: Brick/Energy Projector 20/20
Thor: Brick/Energy Projector 20/20
John Constantine: cant say, only saw the movie and that was awhile ago
Green Lantern: Energy Projector 30
Dr. Doom: Scientist/Magician 10/10
Mr Fantastic: Scientist 20
Iceman: Energy projector 15
Warlock: not really up on him
Beastboy: Acrobat 15
Puck: been a long time since I read AF sorry
Aquaman: Brick 25 maybe? Im not up on him either except for some of Grant Morrison's JLA run[/QUOTE]

As I said, I have a take on this issue. I've given a lot of thought.

You disagree and that's fine. But I'm really not approaching this subject from the ignorance you seem to assume I am.

We just disagree.

 

[Andor]

Neither. Powers are separate from classes.
As I said, I have a take on this issue. I've given a lot of thought.

You disagree and that's fine. But I'm really not approaching this subject from the ignorance you seem to assume I am.

We just disagree.

Ahh. I comprehend now actually. You want to use the class system to govern things like skills and BAB, while maintaining an entirely (or mostly if skills govern some power usage) seperate system for the powers.

While I don't see anything wrong with that idea at all, power are so dominent in most supers character design that the class system would be a relatively minor part of the character in comparison.

Afterall I don't think anyone would claim the Punisher could take down Ironman, and it ain't the extra 5 levels of blaster that make the difference. For that matter he couldn't beat Shadowcat either and he has 5 levels on her by your estimation.

So while I have no issues with that approach I don't really see anything to be gained by it either I'm afraid.

 

[arscott]

The same thing that any well-designed class/level based system gains over a point-based system:

Clarity, and Ease of Play.

In many RPGs, character creation is the hardest part of the game. But it's also the part that comes first, before you know any of the rules or have any experience with game play.

When you're just given a list of options, and told "spend your points on these", It's tough. You don't know which options are necessary, which are good to have, and which sound cool but aren't actually powerful. (That's also true of unstructured list choices in class and level based games, btw. My first 3e character was a melee rogue who didn't have any ranks in tumble).

Posts upthread touch on the fact that CoH started classless, and gained archetypes at a late stage in its development. The reason they did this, though, is that their original classless system was too confusing and hard to use.

Structured choices make character creation faster and easier (always a plus).

Structured choices make for a balanced and well-rounded party (the fantastic four has a striker, a leader, a controller, and a defender)

Structured choices make it easier for the GM to design appropriate encounters that are challenging, but not impossible, for players (M&M doesn't have classes, but it does have levels--and for a good reason).

 

[Jack Colby]

Any d20 based supers is going to have a hard time competing with M&M 2E. For example nothing being talked here can't already be done within its rules.

I think that's kind of irrelevant, since M&M doesn't get onto nearly as many store shelves as WotC books do. Plus, if they make a Marvel Universe game with 4E rules? Forget about it... no competition at all.