D&D 4E 4E d20 Superheroes - I want that too!

[DarkKestral]

The reality is that Marvel RPG failed because it, quite frankly, blew. It failed for the same reason that Dragonlance SAGA failed -- cards are not a satisfactory substitute for dice. It... bothers us old schoolers. Go back to the TSR (I think?) Marvel RPG using the FASERIP system (and dice). It was, in-as-far-as-Supers-games-go, a huge success.

Cards are not a substitute for dice. That is correct. But card-based play done well is possible. It has different requirements, and different strengths, but it is possible. I'd say Dragnlance SAGA system and Marvel RPG Superheroes tanked becuase they were bad, not because they were cards-based and didn't have a good reason for being cards-based. There have been widely successful cards based systems, after all.

White Wolf's MET for nWoD is fairly popular in it's field, though to be fair, it's a LARP system, and the reason it's cards-based is that most LARPing is difficult to do with dice. Original Deadlands did quite well, and was originally a cards-based system and fairly early, as far as things go. It had a poker-based mechanic that worked well with the "Weird West" style of world that was it's setting. It even did well enough to eventually spawn its own progeny, though I'm sure the reason they had to move away from the original Deadlands poker-based mechanic was because the mechanic was too tied to the Deadlands flavor to be generalized well to a wider array of genres.

I disagree. Every single gaming store within 120 miles of my location carries WotC products. You know how many carry M&M? Zero. Oh, sure -- you can special order it. But most people -- hell, most gamers -- aren't like us. They don't hang out on the 'net researching different games. For most of us, if we don't pick it up in a game store and leaf through the pages, we don't even know it EXISTS.

Then I question the quality of your local stores. My local big box bookstores carry M&M or Hero. So do the gaming stores. How is it that the smaller gaming shops manage to stay in business? Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Borders offer WotC and White Wolf products almost all of the time, and are typically the cheapest places to go for those books, so staying solely within the D&D sphere sounds like a way to lose one's shirt.

No disrespect to M&M (or... Green Ronin, is it?), but it's ludicruous to think that third-party publishers can compete with the big boys on a meaningful level. Now, before anyone jumps on me for that -- I'm not saying third party publishers don't produce quality products, just that they don't have the resources/costumer base this early in their corporate lives to saturate the market as well as WotC or WW do.

Yeah, at this time, WotC and White Wolf are essentially a duopoly in terms of sales to mass-market bookstores. But frankly, that is because D&D and Vampire were widely popular fads at one point, so they had clout and got extra boosts of popularity at a point in their careers that have made them "bankable" for major bookstores. So yeah, they won't compete at the same level. But HERO is apparently popular enough that the biggest Superhero MMO designer, Cryptic Studios has decided that their next game will be HERO based. And don't forget the spate of comic book properties being turned into blockbuster movies in general. If a property does well enough, big box retailers will pick it up.

 

[Boarstorm]

Cards are not a substitute for dice. That is correct. But card-based play done well is possible. It has different requirements, and different strengths, but it is possible. I'd say Dragnlance SAGA system and Marvel RPG Superheroes tanked becuase they were bad, not because they were cards-based and didn't have a good reason for being cards-based. There have been widely successful cards based systems, after all.

I concede the point.

Then I question the quality of your local stores. My local big box bookstores carry M&M or Hero. So do the gaming stores. How is it that the smaller gaming shops manage to stay in business? Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Borders offer WotC and White Wolf products almost all of the time, and are typically the cheapest places to go for those books, so staying solely within the D&D sphere sounds like a way to lose one's shirt.

Trust me, I question the quality of my local stores as well! I think the reason they stick with D&D products is that... well, they sell. Many of the more obscure products tend to stay on their shelves forever, so keeping a good stock of them is a way of losing one's shirt faster.

Yeah, at this time, WotC and White Wolf are essentially a duopoly in terms of sales to mass-market bookstores. But frankly, that is because D&D and Vampire were widely popular fads at one point, so they had clout and got extra boosts of popularity at a point in their careers that have made them "bankable" for major bookstores. So yeah, they won't compete at the same level. But HERO is apparently popular enough that the biggest Superhero MMO designer, Cryptic Studios has decided that their next game will be HERO based. And don't forget the spate of comic book properties being turned into blockbuster movies in general. If a property does well enough, big box retailers will pick it up.

Two points here:
1) I know next to nothing about the HERO system, so I can't comment on it with any authority. However, I tend to think someone uses a third-party ruleset for their products because they think it will work best for what they're trying, and not for the popularity of the ruleset. I know that's kind-of wishy-washy thinking, as game publishing is ultimately a BUSINESS. Perhaps I'm stating how I believe it SHOULD be instead of how it is. Regardless, I lost my train of thought half-way through this paragraph, so I'll just stop typing now. Don't you hate that?

2) Superhero is big business these days, very much agreed. And as a comic book geek, I applaud that explosion onto mainstream awareness. I'll cross my fingers that this media explosion translates into new, quality game systems. Not that there aren't good systems out there, just not any that fit my personal tastes (HERO excepted, again, as I haven't tried it). Fingers crossed that that changes.

 

[Felon]

The reality is that Marvel RPG failed because it, quite frankly, blew. It failed for the same reason that Dragonlance SAGA failed -- cards are not a satisfactory substitute for dice. It... bothers us old schoolers. Go back to the TSR (I think?) Marvel RPG using the FASERIP system (and dice). It was, in-as-far-as-Supers-games-go, a huge success.

While we can say Marvel failed with some assurance, stating why it failed is pure conjecture.

Cards can not only substitute for dice, but they offer many advantages over dice as they combine randomness and resource management. The one big problem for them (besides convincing people to try something different) is that they're just not as sturdy.

 

[malcolm_n]

Okay, my last post was kinda on the fly at work. I've had a little time to think it out now.

A super character has stats and abilities equal to any 4e character. Depending on that character's class features, he gains up to a +5 to checks, attacks and damage (like skill training) pertaining to one or more stats. so a speedster would get +5 to Dexterity checks, attacks and damage (but not with ranged weapons) A Strong hero may be able to accomplish the same results with Str instead, so he'd add +5 to Str related numeric values.

Against nonsuperheroes and regular items (such as buildings), you simply tac a 0 to the end result of any check or damage you have your bonus to and handle appropriately...

I'm gonna leave off there since this is getting large, but I am now very much interested in writing something up. I"ll post it here and in the OCC thread when I'm done.

 

[Felon]

Classes do what classes always do: they identify your archetype and the way you play the game.

They also denote how you play the game. So, how would your classes do that?

Powers are things that help you, but dont define your archetype.

This may seem counter-intuitive, but it works.

For example, Vision and Shadowcat both have desolidification, just as Plastic Man and Martian Manhunter can both change shape.

Are those powers what define how they operate in a team setting?

I don't believe that they do. Vision isn't generally skulking around in the background any more than Shadowcat is generally running up to punch guys.

Of course, you need to keep two things in mind: a character's archetype is much easier to pick out in a team book, in fact, team books are better rpg fodder in general, since they are actual adventuring groups; second, yes you can find cases where Vision has been stealthy and yes you can find cases where Shadowcat has punched someone.

If your argument is that classes dont work because classes should be straight jackets, I disagree.

Arguement? I didn't propose an arguement; I asked you how it would work. So far, it just sounds like applying broad descriptors. Give me a taste of the crunch. What is Shadowcat's class going to offer her that the Vision's class doesn't, and vice versa?

I couldnt disagree more. There were archetypes listed by the original designers of D&D for every character class. Sometimes they were historical, such as the Cleric being based on the Knights Hospitlar, but there are fantasy archetypes for D&D characters.

They just didn't choose genre over good design.

See, you're strongly disagreeing, and then negating your strong disagreement by caveating that "they just didn't choose genre over good design", which was exactly what I was saying. The classes were very vague archetypes based on fantasy tropes in a very loose sense, but they didn't sit around trying to think of whether every fighter wore plate mail or every spellcasters didn't, or whether Knights Hospitalier could turn undead, and so forth. They designed classes that they thought would make for a good game.

So if you're asking me if I would institute a rule I thought sucked becuase it would make a better emulation of comics, the answer is no.

That's not I was asking. That's taking the question and made it into one that's easier to answer.

 

[Vigilance]

They also denote how you play the game. So, how would your classes do that?


Arguement? I didn't propose an arguement; I asked you how it would work. So far, it just sounds like applying broad descriptors. Give me a taste of the crunch. What is Shadowcat's class going to offer her that the Vision's class doesn't, and vice versa?

Speedfreak: Highest class-based Defense. Medium BAB, broad skill selection. Moderate HD (d8). Fights by avoiding most hits through speed, mobility and a high defense.

Long range fighters also take this class. They use their speed to stay away from the enemy while they attack from range.

Iconic Speedfreaks: Human Torch; Shadowcat; Spider Man; Nightcrawler; Quicksilver; Hawkeye; Captain America

Brick: Offensive melee fighter. High BAB. Moderate skill selection. Takes the fight to the enemy up close and personal.

Iconic Bricks: Wolverine; Giant Man; Hulk; Sub-Mariner

Tank: Defensive melee fighter. Highest HD. Moderate skill selection. Takes hits for weaker party members.

Iconic Tanks: Thing; Colossus; Luke Cage

Brainiac: Moderate BAB. Moderate HD. Extremely high skill points and broad skill selection. The hero who gets things done with his intelligence.

Iconic Brainiacs: Mr. Fantastic; Iron Man; Bat Man

Empath: Moderate BAB. Moderate HD. Senses, healing and team synergy are this class' strengths. Awareness, both of the environment and self.

Iconic Empaths: Scarlet Witch; Daredevil; Professor X; Jean Grey

Leader: Gets the team to work together and leads them in battle. Moderate BAB. Moderate HD. Good skills. Wealth and access are also strengths of this class.

Iconic Leaders: Wasp; Cyclops

 

[Andor]

Hmmm. Would you handle advancment piecemeal or by level? The supers genre in particular is marked by a relatively strong starting point and little or no advancement afterwards.

What advancement does take place is usually story driven. Kitty Pride, for example, was basically unchanged for several years, and then got abducted and taught to be a demon ninja in a couple of issues. I'll grant a good arguement could be made for her having gained a few levels in a PRC here.

Wolverine for some reason seems to get steadily less powerful the more popular he gets.

Batman is pretty much the peak of possible human performance in any capacity, and he has access to an endless array of gadgets, which vary wildly by issue.

Nightcrawlers abilities were pretty static untill the cross-time caper when he figured out how to dimensional teleport. Although I don't recall him actually using that power much since then.

Hmm.... You know RPG style advancement whether point based or level based is just not much of a factor in the supers genre. But few players are going to be willing to play without advancement.... *hmmm*

 

[Vigilance]

Hmmm. Would you handle advancment piecemeal or by level? The supers genre in particular is marked by a relatively strong starting point and little or no advancement afterwards.

Well, I think you can see advancement in plenty of heroes, though it's not at an even rate, no.

I mean, look at the original 5 X-men now. They're all considerably better at what they do.

Spider-man is also a classic case for superhero advancement.

Iron Man has advanced as well, Id say Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Yellowjacket has as well, though with all retraining its sometimes hard to tell.

Other characters, like Cap, come into the Silver Age more or less fully formed.

But I am in favor of story driven advancement for my games period. That's more of a sweet spot problem than a genre issue though. Freeform advancement allows groups to spend less time in the levels that dont appeal to their play style and more time in the levels that do.

Nightcrawlers abilities were pretty static untill the cross-time caper when he figured out how to dimensional teleport. Although I don't recall him actually using that power much since then.

See I think Nightcrawler had fairly clear advancement in the early days of the New X-men.

If you recall, he learned his "multi-port" trick, where he used teleporting to attack multiple times, carrying another person while teleporting, increasing his range, and the sword skills were all gained during Claremont's early New X-men run.

I'd also contend that Storm advanced during that period, becoming more of a leader, and Wolverine too.

A lot of the "revelations" of his past life, which seemed to expand his skill repertoir (becoming a stealthy ninja-samurai with Japanese weapon and language skills) could be seen as advancement, even though in story he "always had those abilities". they were just never shown.

 

[arscott]

I see advancement as happening at a much slower pace in a superheroes game than in a 4e D&D game.

A 4e-ish superheroes game probably stays entirely within one tier, rather than progressing through all three. So if the 1-30 campaign length is as appropriate for a superheroes game as WotC feels it is for a fantasy game, then I'd expect Superhero characters to gain a level every 30 encounters, instead of every 10.