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D&D 4E 4e death of creative spell casting?

olshanski said:
In many cases, I've found that rules clarifications regarding spells are more helpful than not: for example, 3.5 removed some AD&D exploits regarding levitating an unwilling creature, casting feather fall to prevent arrows from harming you, preventing expanding air-pressure damage from spells like fireball (or deafening from lightning bolt).

You have a good point; it's true that players will try anything they can get away with. Heck, I know I would. Still, there's always gonna be some stuff that's up to DM adjudication. I think it's important for combat spells to be strictly defined, but utility-type spells have room for a little more interpretation.
 

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Jer said:
Now, what you MIGHT see happen is less "creative spellcasting" overall if wizards aren't up against the wall with no spells but "Grease" and "Prestigitation" left in their repertoire for the day and they're trying to figure a way out of the mess the party is in - if the wizard always has some kind of attack spell handy the need for "creative spellcasting" is diminished and you may see less of it overall.
True, but the siloing might bring it back. If you have a certain number of day/encounter slots for combat spells only and a certain number for utility spells only, then figuring out a way to use a utility spell in combat gives you more resources to draw on than you're "supposed" to have. As long as the at-will abilities aren't so good that they eclipse any combat use of utility spells, that should be plenty of fodder for creativity.
 

Jer said:
Now, what you MIGHT see happen is less "creative spellcasting" overall if wizards aren't up against the wall with no spells but "Grease" and "Prestigitation" left in their repertoire for the day and they're trying to figure a way out of the mess the party is in - if the wizard always has some kind of attack spell handy the need for "creative spellcasting" is diminished and you may see less of it overall.

Yes, I have mixed feelings about the whole "at will combat spells" thing. It's kind of cool, but I am so used to the idea of Vancian spellcasting (or psionic points spellcasting, or whatever -- anyway, the idea that you can't just cast spells indefinitely) that I have trouble imagining playing a spellcaster who doesn't have to worry about that end-of-the-day last-legs moment "No... spells... left... Must... use... crossbow!" Of course, I'm sure they'll have SOME kind of "per encounter" and "per day" variant of this, or at least they better, because it is just so melodramatic...

On a side note, though I hate to point out how powerful wizards are ;) , has anyone considered just how awesome unlimited warlock-style power-blasting (which seems to be the closest comparison to the at-will combat spells in 4e) would be if D&D attempted more to simulate actual reality? Take a fighter and a wizard who have been captured by bad guys and stripped of their weapons and armor... and all of a sudden the wizard can start freely blasting people with his bare hands, once per round, nonstop??!? :/ Madness! It's only because D&D is so heavily tactical and has so little of a simulation-of-reality "HOLY CRAP! THAT GUY SHOT FIRE FROM HIS HANDS!" element that this doesn't seem as awesome as it is.

(What I mean is: rather than unlimited mage-striking in combat, I would be interesed in more ritual-magic-based variants of the spellcasting classes, myself... but hey, I do love the Ars Magica and Amber...)
 
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I have very mixed feelings about this thread.

On the one hand, most 'creative spellcasting' involves the player telling the DM what the results of his action are. This is a player stance that I find very annoying, particularly when it involves going outside of the rules. I don't mind telling me what you intend to do, but don't decide for me whether its going to work. It's my job to decide that, and I don't want to hear, "Well, if I knew that was going to happen, I wouldn't have done it. Can we have a do over?", in terms that are usually more beligerant than that. Moreover, most of the time the player playing 'creatively' wants something for nothing. What they are really asking for is a lower level spell to emulate the effects of a much higher level spell.

On the other hand, one of my rules of thumb as a DM is 'Don't say 'No'.' I don't like to give the player nothing, especially when they are doing what they are supposed to be doing which is think inside the box. (No, really, imagining creative uses for a spell is inside the box, where the box is our little shared imaginary universe. Thinking outside the box would be thinking that because the rules say what a spell does, it can't ever do anything else.)

Give a simple example. Suppose a player wants to cast 'light' at someone's eyes. (In earlier editions, incidently, this was perfectly legal.) To me, in theory this seems like a perfectly reasonable thing. If you can make light shine in space, and with some sort of range, and you can choose the location, why not? The problem comes when the player wants to, "Cast light at the anti-paladin's eyes to blind him.", and then insists that he ought to be able to do that because, "it's creative", and starts to bargin with me about it. What he wants is to use a 0th level spell to do something that you'd need a 2nd or higher level spell to do. The spell he's using is more limited than that, and frankly, making up some effect isn't creative. Using what you have is creative. Looking at light, it's got a range of touch, so you'd have to make a touch attack, and its got a target of object, so target a helm or a visor not 'eyes'. And looking at other 0th level spells, permenent blindness is out of the question. Being dazzled for a short term is much more reasonable. And obviously, sence this is an attack, a saving throw would be granted.

As for 4E, it's hard to imagine that the rules would kill creativity since by definition, we are talking about going outside of the rules. What might serve to kill creativity if anything is spellcasters having a reduced selection of spells (both per day and on their allowed spell lists) with the ambiguos spells removed in favor of simplier cleaner 'blast' type spells. I really wonder how a pure illusionist will play out under the suggested rules. I can imagine a 'ray of cold +6'. I have harder time imagining a 'simple illusion +6'. But we will see when we actually see the mechanics.

Once again, speaking as a programmer, I can't help but think that the driving force here is to make everything easily implementable on a computer. 'Creativity' really means 'needs a DM's input', and you can't program that into a computer.
 

NatalieD said:
Things like this can be cool the first time a player does them. But after that, you're stuck with letting a wizard blind every enemy he fights using a level 0 spell with no save. And if you let them do it once, they're going to cry bloody murder if you try to rule against it later on.

Absolutely it's cool the first time. When they really cry bloody murder is when your NPCs do it to the PCs. Sauce for the goose and all....
 

Celebrim said:
I have very mixed feelings about this thread.



Once again, speaking as a programmer, I can't help but think that the driving force here is to make everything easily implementable on a computer. 'Creativity' really means 'needs a DM's input', and you can't program that into a computer.

This has been my thought from the beginning. They are taking away anything that seems like it could cause problem simulating it by a program.
 

ptolemy18 said:
(What I mean is: rather than unlimited mage-striking in combat, I would be interesed in more ritual-magic-based variants of the spellcasting classes, myself... but hey, I do love the Ars Magica and Amber...)

So play Ars Magica and Amber.
 

ptolemy18 said:
(What I mean is: rather than unlimited mage-striking in combat, I would be interesed in more ritual-magic-based variants of the spellcasting classes, myself... but hey, I do love the Ars Magica and Amber...)

Or you can keep playing D&D and use that rituals from Unearted Arcana. I think they are a sub system loose enough to be brought to 4E. Who knows?
I like'em :)
 

Varianor Abroad said:
Absolutely it's cool the first time. When they really cry bloody murder is when your NPCs do it to the PCs. Sauce for the goose and all....

I never let the players do anything which would be problimatic if my NPC's did it to them. The golden rule of DMing is, "Be the DM that you would like to have if you were the player." When looking at a creative interpretation of a spell, consider how you would like the DM to rule if the DM's NPC had invented the same trick.

Dropping an elephant on my head? I don't think so. The DM used dimension door to burst my character apart from the inside? I don't think I'll be showing up next week. Or ever.
 


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