D&D 4E 4e: Death of the Bildungsroman

[two]

But very, very many start with the protagonist at a decent power level, and only incrementally becoming more powerful. Character development is not the same as level grind.

Sure, of course.

But the traditional bildungsroman also starts with the protagonist wet-behind-the-ears (low, low level). That's just the trope. Sister Carrie goes to the big city; that's a typical bildungsroman. And most of the fantasy I read when young, and I assume most that was published when I was young, was of this type.

 

[hong]

Great.

It will make the crazy wild zotty tricky stuff (from level 1) lovers happy.

I'd like to see crazy wild zotty tricky stuff (from level 5) or so.

No, you want to do mundane stuff from level 1. This is not the same as keeping the wild stuff to level 5, because you can do both mundane and wild stuff at the same level. With skill, you could even do both in the same encounter for added entertainment value.

(learning along the way, of course, growing, exploring, discovering that it's not that smart to sniff open containers of pepper,

You... really need to play this out in D&D?

the best way to settle an argument between washerwomen,

This happens the first time you have an encounter with washerwomen, regardless of level.

the spot on a giant fire beetle where the carapace is weak,

This happens the first time you have an encounter with fire beetles, regardless of level.

best methods for burping baby,

Arnie managed to do this, and he was not 1st level.

the preferred method of warming a post-prandial brandy in a large snifter, etc.)

Julia Roberts did something similar with escargots, and she was not 1st level.

 

[hong]

Sure, of course.

But the traditional bildungsroman also starts with the protagonist wet-behind-the-ears (low, low level). That's just the trope. Sister Carrie goes to the big city; that's a typical bildungsroman. And most of the fantasy I read when young, and I assume most that was published when I was young, was of this type.

You should read more fantasy. Conan was never really wet-behind-the-ears in any published media. Neither was Elric, nor Fafhrd, nor the guys in the Black Company, nor Druss the Axe, nor Waylander the Slayer, nor A*r*gorn, nor Tiger and Del.... Heck, the most prominent example of bildungsroman that I can think of these days is Final Fantasy.

 

[FireLance]

In another thread, I considered splitting the pre-1st-level stage into the the "Novice" and "Apprentice" levels. However, my key objective was to ease new players slowly into the game by gradually introducing them to the game rules and their characters' abilities. Note that this approach only roughly balances the classes and races (classes and races that have a higher proportion of constant and at-will abilities will be relatively more powerful at the Novice level).

At Novice level, the idea is to introduce the players to the simplest abilities of their characters and to the basics of gameplay. Novice-level characters have the following abilities:
[SBLOCK]Hit Points: Constitution+3 for defenders, Constitution+2 for leaders, strikers and controllers.

Healing surges: same as a 1st-level character, but can only be used between fights as Novice-level characters cannot catch a second wind (healing surges don't increase with levels, after all)

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: same as a 1st-level character (lack of money will be a bigger restriction on choice of weapons and armor for low-level characters, so further restricting proficiencies seems rather pointless)

Class Defence Bonus: same as a 1st-level character (it's a small and constant bonus, and helps to differentiate the characters)

Racial Abilities: All at-will and constant abilities*
Class Abilities: All at-will and constant class features, and one at-will power*
(* Except those related to action points and second wind, which will be introduced in the Apprentice level, along with encounter abilities and powers.)

Trained Skills: All free skills (e.g. Stealth and Thievery for a rogue) and one other.

Novice-level characters do not have action points and cannot catch a second wind.

Novice-level characters become Apprentice-level characters when they have earned one-quarter the XP that a 1st-level character needs to gain a level.[/SBLOCK]At Apprentice level, players are introduced to the more tactical aspects of gameplay, including action points, the second wind action, and encounter abilities. Apprentice-level characters gain the following abilities:
[SBLOCK]Hit Points: +6 hp for defenders, +5 hp for leaders and strikers, and +4 hp for controllers.

Racial Abilities: Gain their remaining racial abilities.

Class Abilities: Gain their remaining class features, another at-will power, and one encounter power.

Trained Skills: Gain an additional trained skill.

Apprentice-level characters become 1st-level characters when they have earned one-half the XP that a 1st-level character needs to gain a level.[/SBLOCK]At 1st-level, the characters gain their remaining abilities, namely:
[SBLOCK]Hit Points: +6 hp for defenders, +5 hp for leaders and strikers, and +4 hp for controllers.

Class Abilities: Gain one daily power.

Trained Skills: Gain their remaining trained skills.

Feat: One feat.[/SBLOCK]However, even the Novice level assumes some amount of practice or training on the part of the character. For a true "bildungsroman" start, the character's abilities might be along the lines of:
[SBLOCK]Hit Points: Constitution score for all characters.

Healing surges: half the number for a 1st-level character, and can only be used between fights

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: same as a 1st-level character

Class Defence Bonus: same as a 1st-level character

Racial Abilities: All at-will and constant abilities*
(* Except those related to action points and second wind)

Class Abilities: Gain the benefits of the multiclassing feat for the selected class.

Trained Skills: As per the multiclassing feat for the selected class.

Bildungsroman characters do not have action points and cannot catch a second wind.

Bildungsroman characters become Novice-level characters when they have earned one-tenth the XP that a 1st-level character needs to gain a level.[/SBLOCK]

 

[DandD]

Beginning hero of a fantasy novel is not equal to low-level hero in D&D, and never will be. two has to realize that no edition of D&D ever will accomplish that. And yes, hong is right. Grinding levels in roleplaying games, be they pen-and-paper or computer, isn't character-growth like in a fantasy novel.

 

[Ipissimus]

The point is, the bildungsroman is dead.

I haven't read the entire thread so I'm sorry if this point has already been made.

The bildungsroman concept works in literature. Everyone wants to understand their own coming of age and they can relate to a character going through the same process. The problem when you apply this to RPGs is that the bildungsroman has one thing in his favor that PCs do not.

Control.

An author can skillfully wrangle events so that the bildungsroman will eventually come out on top or die heroically at the end, either way they make the author's point. A story is told and a lesson is learned. Good authors will even wrangle things so that it's believable that the simple farm boy didn't die a horrible death a mile from home. Even so, a lot of these stories rely on the trope 'Evil is Incompetent' just to see the hero through the first part of the journey.

PCs don't have the luxury of an author. A DM should control things a bit but sometimes the dice just turn against you. You can only fudge things so far. The dice control your destiny to some extent and, sometimes, Players do stupid things. Or Players do perfectly logical things that turn out to be bad decisions. Or they touch the wrong statue.

DnD is also a game. People want something different out of a game than they want from a book. Books are a hell of a lot better at examining situations and providing deep insights into motivations. But I've never read a book that made me believe that I was kicking ass and taking names. Personally, I think they're playing 4E to DnD's strengths.

 

[Cirex]

In the fantasy GENRE, very few novels start with the protagonist at level 28 of power.

In fact, none do that I ever read. I'm sure they exist. They just are rather outside the norm (not that that is a bad thing; but I'm looking at the norm here).

It's part of the fantasy bildungsroman genre to feature a generally powerless or weak protagonist who becomes powerful over time (via adventures) and who grows/matures while this happens.

I'm not convinced 4e supports this sort of thing that well. 1st level in 4e may well be exactly equivalent to 1st level in 3e (regarding how often PC's die); but to me they don't = equivalent, given 4e's crash-boom-bang abilities starting at level 1, which make the bildungsroman theme hard to swallow.

The War of the Spider Queen saga (Six books) start with very high level characters. Pharaun, the main character, is around level 14, casting spells non-stop. Just when he's going to be out of spells, he's got all his arsenal of wands and scrolls. Running out of spells is used by the narrative to enhance the experience of combats. He become somewhat weaker, and must be protected by his friends...the same ones he's been outshining over and over.


Now, I understand the OP's concern, however, I don't disagree with the 4e approach. I like the concept of heroes starting as heroes. Maybe, in the past, they were just farmers, but some chained events lead him to be what is he now, ready to start with a new group of companions (level 1). And they got a wide array of spells (and hit points!) to fight many encounters a day.
The problem at 3.5 were two, hit points and spells per day for caster classes. I managed to fix the first giving max HP at level 1 plus the constitution bonus (Wizard with Con 16 : 23 HP), but the latter...

A level 1 cleric has decent weapon profency, HP and heavy armor to do something interesting the rest of the day. A level 1 wizard has what, 2 spells? Super low HP and can just hope to use his crossbow with a -4 penalty against melee enemies engaded with melee allies. A lucky wizard may be looking at a +0 total attack modifier...

 

[Dormain1]

Originally Posted by hong
But very, very many start with the protagonist at a decent power level, and only incrementally becoming more powerful. Character development is not the same as level grind.

What may be level grind to you maybe an enjoyable RP experience to another, why not have the options of playing low level characters who can die

Originally Posted by hong
You should read more fantasy. Conan was never really wet-behind-the-ears in any published media. Neither was Elric, nor Fafhrd, nor the guys in the Black Company, nor Druss the Axe, nor Waylander the Slayer, nor A*r*gorn, nor Tiger and Del.... Heck, the most prominent example of bildungsroman that I can think of these days is Final Fantasy.

Quite a few movies and novels do start characters as wet behind the ears, Conan per the movie was unable to defend his mother when he was a child and became a slave, Frodo another from book or movie you choose, yes others started with more than a bit of experience but to exclude the weaker power levels does nothing but alienate loyal DnD fans

Hopefully the DMG does have rules to guide this as unfortunatly 3rd parties cannot publish anything which pertains to level increases

I argee with you that character development does not have a level requirment but for those who enjoy playing less heroic level types 4E isn't catering to them at all which it was in 3.x

 

[Fifth Element]

What may be level grind to you maybe an enjoyable RP experience to another, why not have the options of playing low level characters who can die

Low-level characters in 4E can die, so that can't be the issue.

But really, the best two words to answer "why not start really weak, so that you have that option" are: new players. Someone picking up D&D for the first time is going to start at level 1. If they play at level 1, and die at level 1 because the characters are nearly-incompetent newbs, they will not like D&D very much. WotC has determined that most new players don't like frustration in the game, since it turns them off the game. They probably figure the players who like to start out as dirt farmers are in the minority, and are worth irking if it means that more new players will be able to enjoy the game out of the box.

 

[Fifth Element]

Quite a few movies and novels do start characters as wet behind the ears, Conan per the movie was unable to defend his mother when he was a child and became a slave

But when Conan began his adventuring career, he was already seriously badass. I submit that the vast majority of D&D players would not enjoy RPing their characters at 8 years old, or RPing years of slavery, chained to the wheel.