D&D 4E 4e Design and JRR Tolkien

Edit the second: I should also say that the nature of a sand box campaign does not preclude developing a single ongoing plot. If the players decide their ultimate goal is to become gods and thus embark on a quest in the sand box to determine if they can do so, and if they can, do so, there will be an overlying story arc to everything. The important point being, of course, that the players decided to embark upon that quest by their own choosing.

Oh true. ((And it's nice to agree isn't it :) ))

I think a better example of sandbox play and what you're talking about here is Firefly. The episodes were not really driven by any one storyline, and the common thread story lines were mostly character driven. The basic goal of the characters was to make enough money to keep flying. Everything that happened in the series basically fell out of that goal. As they took a given job, something that may be totally unrelated to that job happened and they had to deal with it. Which jobs they took or didn't take, was ((supposedly)) up to the characters. ((This, of course, falls apart since the writer has all the control, but...))

I agree with JohnSnow that running even an approximate sandbox campaign is very, very challenging. Mostly because of the large amount of prep required to do it well. And, I think that Gentlegamer has a point too that lighter rules systems perhaps fit this style better. Basic/Expert D&D would be a much better fit for sandbox play simply because you don't really have to worry about mechanics all that much - there just aren't enough mechanics to worry about. :)

I also wonder if Sandbox play is perhaps better suited for a particular range of levels. How do you make your sandbox big enough that you can include adventures that 1st level parties and 17th level parties can simply wander into? ((Again, appologies for the video game reference)) MMORPG's like Everquest deal with this by making certain areas go/no go for certain levels. Or rather, you can take you low level character into a particular area, but you survival chances are very, very low.

I'm not sure if that model works so well for D&D though where you have access to so many different forms of transportation.
 

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I agree with JohnSnow that running even an approximate sandbox campaign is very, very challenging. Mostly because of the large amount of prep required to do it well.
Not necessarily. Sandbox games can be very low prep if mechanics exist that lets the players participate in world building and a good bit of flexibility on the GM's part.

Last week I played a Spirit of the Century adventure in which the ONLY prep the GM did was decide that there were wanted posters of the PCs up (thanks to what we did last adventure). The adventure ended with the PCs foiling an assassination of the Imperial ambassador at a masquerade ball while the building collapsed. The GM knew that we'd come up with something fun to get out of the mess he put us in and let us roll with it while putting appropriate roadblocks in our way as the adventure progressed.

The secret to good sandbox GMing is to avoid this:

GM: Nothing much is happening where you are, what are you gunna do now?
Players: Dunno

and encourage this:

GM: Some bad :):):):) is going down, and if you just sit on your asses you're going to be in a world of pain, what're you going to do about it?
Players: Crap, let's think up a plan...
 

IMHO, a sandbox is far easier to both set up and run than an adventure path.

A sandbox does require you to create a more detailed setting than an adventure path, but as it is extremely likely that your work will be visited more than once, the effort-to-reward ratio tends to be higher. For example, in one game I started with a local cave system (known as The Dragon's Lair, although there are no dragons there). Some time later, aware that they hadn't explored all of the area, the more powerful PCs returned. Similarly, in one 2e campaign with dozens of players, the Dungeon of Thale played a central (but not exclusive) role.

Most sandboxes start with something obvious, and then explodes into options. For example, PCs start at a village, and hear about some local caves. Exploring the caves brings up leads to two other possible adventures. Exploring any of those links to more possible adventures. And so on. And so on. In systems where statting is easier than 3e, the DM need produce only an outline to any given adventure, and then flesh in the details when (if) the players show interest. Starting a sandbox is as easy as picking a few adventures from Dungeon, placing them on a map, and then seeing how the various plots and places interact with the PCs. This might be even easier by picking some older modules (1e, BD&D) and their 3.X conversions. Or pick up the Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set....and "old school" sandbox setting if ever there was one.

The current model of D&D (soon to be replaced) makes sandbox DMing difficult in a couple of ways. The first is that statting out areas takes far too long. When prep is easier, then it is far easier to prep more (and hence a larger area). The second is that the rate of advancement, coupled with the power curve from advancement, acts to quickly make areas with appropriate challenges less than challenging. A 3.X DM fully prepping 3-5 areas for 1-3rd level play has very probably wasted 3-4 of them. 3.X, without modifying XP awards/level progression at least, is very unfriendly to sandbox DMing. By reducing XP to 1/2 (or even 1/4), 3.X becomes far easier/more fulfilling to sandbox.

The most important thing about creating a sandbox is that the world has to be interesting enough to capture the players' imaginations. And this is, perhaps, where some DMs find sandbox DMing to be "too difficult".

Here are some easy ways to relieve those problems:

(1) Whenever you create a significant part of the world, create a secret to go along with it. Remember this one from Dungeoncraft? It's perhaps the most important sandbox "secret" of all time.

(2) Interconnect. Say that you're starting a game using 5 low-level modules or Dungeon adventures in your starting area. Go through them, and find ways to refer to at least one of the other adventure areas in each area. Perhaps the villians are related. Perhaps one villian has sent an emissary to another. Perhaps there is a letter. Perhaps one area is gearing up for war against another. This doesn't have to be horribly sophisticated. For example, if you are planning on using The Last Dance, then the forest where that module takes place can border several adventure areas....and the DM can have the humanoids in those areas afraid of the "haunted forest".

(3) Expand. As you devise new areas, or add new modules/adventures, keep up the same process of interconnecting them. You can modify areas to do this, so long as the PCs haven't explored them yet. You should never say to the players, "From now on, we'll pretend that the ogre you met last week said....." as it breaks the illusion of seamlessness.

(4) Create foils. This doesn't just mean villians. It means rival adventurers, and rival adventuring parties. Some of them should be nominally "on the same side". Foils give urgency to the players; if they don't crack the Egg of Coot first, surely the Company of the Purple Feather will do so. Remember that foils are intended to spur the PCs on the greatness. This is where the DM should use his desire to create PCs. These people can be totally KEWL! -- showing the players what they can achieve. They can, and should, be able to outdo the PCs (at least in the beginning). They exist to be overcome, and grown beyond, though, so the DM should allow the players to measure their progress by hard-won victories over their foils. Earning the grudging respect of a foil...or making a foil into an ally...is a wonderful feeling!

(5) Create allies. For every foil you create, make 2-3 allies. Allies are characters who support, help, aid, and otherwise make PC lives nicer. They might be sages, wandering merchants, innkeepers, farmer's daughters....it doesn't matter. What matters is, if they charge, the cost is upfront. There are no strings attached. They are "good guys". Some of them can get PCs out of jams. They can offer advice and support. They cannot, however, generally fight the PCs battles for them. Most allies should be far less powerful than the PCs...at least by the time the PCs have a few levels under their belts.

Many DMs forget the importance of allies. Allies are characters that tell the players that they don't need to be completely cynical about the world. They are characters who offer safe haven. They grant role-playing opportunities. It is okay to threaten allies very occasionally, but if you use allies to pull strings at all frequently, the players are unlikely to get very close to them.

When the players go against the King, it is cool to have their ally, the King's Forrester, warn them about the foolishness of their actions, and say "If I can find you, be certain that so too can the King." It is not cool to have their ally lead the King's men to them, or assassinate them in their sleep, or be kidnapped by orcs at least once every game year.

The game works well if no more than 1 out of 10 "allies" turns out to be a foil in disguise, or if 1 out of 6 foils can be turned into an ally. You can use monsters as allies....the minotaur in the Labyrinth of Koss that acts as an oracle to those who pay it in horseflesh, for example, but few allies should "show up" the PCs. In general, the flashier the ally, the less mobile that ally should be. If you have to go to the Vale of Shadows to encounter Atlas, because he's busy holding up the world, that's better than an Elminster who can show up anywhere and outdo the PCs.

The Golden Rule is that allies are more important to the game than foils, but foils tend to be flashier than allies.

(6) Description, description, description. You don't need to name every orc, but it helps if you keep lists of names so that, if the players ask, every orc seems to be significant. When travelling, let the players know what the road is like, what the landscape is like. Lots of little streams? Markers on the road? Tell 'em! Toolbox is a useful...erm....toolbox for this sort of thing. The important thing is to let them feel like they live in a world that breathes, and exists without them. Mention normal animals...birds, squirrels, etc. ....so that the wizard's familiar spying on them one day doesn't stick out like a sore thumb.

FASA's Doctor Who RPG used the term "recognition handle" for some characteristic about PCs & NPCs that made them instantly recognizable. Think about what recognition handles you can give NPCs....and towns, and wilderness areas.

When you're reading a good novel, jot down bits of description that stir you. Mention things like a glint of sunlight off a far, lonely tor. The players might want to discover what it is. Even mentioning hills might make them want to know what's on the other side.

Good description stirs the imagination. Get yourself a mixing spoon.

(7) Take notes. If you make up a detail in one session, jot it down so that it is consistent going forward. If the two stablehands are Bob and Nob in one adventure, but their names chance to Fred and Bread in the next, the players are going to wonder what happened.

If you do end up making a mistake like this, though, try to roll with it. Come up with a reason why it makes sense, if you can. Make it a feature, not a bug.

Example: In one campaign, an NPC is named Octavia Augustus. The latin-teaching player asks, "Shouldn't that be Augusta?" Quick answer...No. Why? Because if you want to create an illusion of a living, breathing world, you need to be willing to pretend that Octavia Augustus existed before the players asked for a name. Afterwords, you can determine that OA is actually a male cross-dresser, and that the name is a clue.

(8) Pay attention to the players. If the players are interested in something, flesh it out more. "Flesh it out" doesn't mean "turn it into something fantastic or all-powerful". It just means add detail. If the players are interested in the history of the +1 sword they found, give it history....and tie it into an adventure location you have prepped!.

In a sandbox game, the players decide what to do. You can certainly attempt to garner their interest, however. Indeed, you must attempt to do so. That's your job as a DM.

RC
 

Daztur said:
The secret to good sandbox GMing is to avoid this:

GM: Nothing much is happening where you are, what are you gunna do now?
Players: Dunno

and encourage this:

GM: Some bad :):):):) is going down, and if you just sit on your asses you're going to be in a world of pain, what're you going to do about it?
Players: Crap, let's think up a plan...

I recommend using an "event calendar". If you have the 1e Oriental Adventures tome, there is a section in the back for generating weekly, monthly, and annual events. Make yourself a blank calendar, using whatever scheme exists in your campaign world. Then take a hour and generate a year's worth of events.

Again, tie events into your preplanned adventure areas as much as possible. Don't be afraid to leave some events dangling, though, to lead to "new" areas as you plan them!

Then, when the players don't know what to do, invite them to stay at an NPC ally's home, and hit them with rumours each week until something piques their interest. Don't be shy about including festivals, holidays, and events of the household they are staying in.

Advantage 1: Real PC downtime. The players might decide to craft or commission something during this time.

Advantage 2: Real ties to NPC allies can be forged. Staying at Sir Ponce's villa endears the PCs to Sir Ponce. Mentioning feasts is fine; you need no more detail than the players want. Having Sir Ponce try to marry his daughter/son to a PC is always fun.

Advantage 3: Makes the world seem more real, and areas seem more dynamic. If the PCs didn't wipe out the Caves of Chaos, this week there will be a humanoid raid on a caravan coming to the Keep on the Borderlands.

Advantage 4: Helps to eliminate the "DM will tell us what to do" mentality. Which is good, because waiting for the DM to tell you what to do does not preclude complaining about a railroad afterwards!

RC
 

I like this sandbox discussion. We tried to have one at the Circvs recently that unfortunately collapsed under it's own weight after a while.

If we accept the term "sandbox" as a discrete point on the spectrum of DMing styles, then at most, my style would be considered "half-sandbox" or perhaps "hybrid sandbox." Maybe to use JohnSnow's terminology, I simply give the "illusion of a sandbox" without actually doing so.

To put the analogy to more use than it probably warrants, think of this: when I take my kids to the beach (or any other sandbox) we pack up a basket of sand toys. Little castle molds that you can fill with sand and dump upside down to get a ready-made castle. A few buckets and scoops. Stuff like that. The sand is unlimited, but the suite of tools is not. Where my DMing differs from "true" sandbox is:
  • I do have stuff prepared. Although the players choose what to do, on occasion they're faced with many of the same challenges no matter what they choose. Even if they try to just up and leave, then find that other factors within the sandbox make that difficult and kind of channel them towards material that I've prepared even so. However, giving the PC's choice, and altering (or at least presenting) the game to them as different based on their choices is very important to me. The PC's are not loose cannons running around completely free of any ties to the setting; they are firmly rooted in the setting. They can't turn on a dime in terms of campaign direction and imagine that the setting will suddenly shift with them.

  • NPCs and their motivations and plans are a big part of what drives the game. If I have a BBEG, he's got plans, and he's putting them into motion. The setting is not static. If the PC's fail (or simply don't even try) to confront the BBEG, the setting gets worse for the PC's due to their lack of action. In fact, I like to have too much going on for them to deal with. They have to make choices and prioritize what they want to tackle, and they have to deal with the consequences of what they don't.

  • In my experience, few players can start off a new campaign, especially in a homebrew world, and immediately "sandbox" effectively. They need to flesh out their characters through some sessions of play, put down some roots and create some ties to the setting before they are effective at this playstyle. I guess if they create really detailed backstories they can begin right away, but in my experience few of them have enough backstory to immediately begin jumping into adventure based on their backstory. So I always start off a new campaign with a bit of "here's the adventure I'm presenting you with; run through it and then you'll find all kinds of hooks and other things within it; you can make up your own mind on what to pursue afterwards, and take a more proactive role."

  • I don't DM completely "off the cuff". I like to solicit as much feedback as possible as to what the PC's plans are so I can stay a little bit ahead of them with something prepared instead of something just generated on the fly. I find that that gives me the advantages of "sandbox" without the most glaring disadvantage: if you don't have time to prepare anything except in the heat of the moment, chances are what you end up with will be pretty cliched and mediocre. If the PC's can give me enough feedback that I can pretty accurately predict what they want to do next session, I can make some loose preparations and give them something to remember, while still being reactive, letting them maintain control, etc.
 

Hobo said:
If we accept the term "sandbox" as a discrete point on the spectrum of DMing styles, then at most, my style would be considered "half-sandbox" or perhaps "hybrid sandbox." Maybe to use JohnSnow's terminology, I simply give the "illusion of a sandbox" without actually doing so.

I would argue that "sandbox" is a spectrum, rather than a discrete point, in the same way that "railroad" is (but on the other end! :) ). Your beach analogy, to me, describes a sandbox. For example, if I was to run the WLD, but didn't try to force the PCs to follow a path of my choosing, then the WLD could be a sandbox. A sandbox is defined by your capacity to make choices, to have open-ended narrative threads, and to follow your own agenda, IMHO.

I do have stuff prepared. Although the players choose what to do, on occasion they're faced with many of the same challenges no matter what they choose. Even if they try to just up and leave, then find that other factors within the sandbox make that difficult and kind of channel them towards material that I've prepared even so.

This is pretty normal. If Frodo was in a sandbox, the Nazgul searching for him etc. would still cause him problems. A sandbox means that the PCs dictate their goals; it doesn't eliminate the goals of others.

A good sandbox DM is likely to have some prepared "wandering lairs" that he can plunk down where they are needed. Once a lair is located, though, its location doesn't change. Moreover, if the PCs do their utmost to avoid that lair, they are not forced into it.

It is fair play for the creatures in the world to act, and it is fair to the DM to entice the players, but it is unfair for the DM to have the creatures act as though they know everything about the PCs (unless, somehow, they do) in order to force the PCs to a particular course.

NPCs and their motivations and plans are a big part of what drives the game.

Normal for a sandbox. "Sandbox" doesn't mean "choices are without context or consequences".

If the PCs don't do X, then Y happens is legitimate (and normal) sandbox fare. But, since the PCs might not do X, Y should always be something that the DM is willing to have happen. Let's say that you wanted to start a sandbox using the Savage Tide AP as part of the backdrop. Well, the DM either needs to be comfortable with running the world after the BBEG succeeds, or he needs to reconsider using the entire AP as part of the backdrop.

In my experience, few players can start off a new campaign, especially in a homebrew world, and immediately "sandbox" effectively.

Agreed. That's why I said "Most sandboxes start with something obvious, and then explodes into options."

I don't DM completely "off the cuff". I like to solicit as much feedback as possible as to what the PC's plans are so I can stay a little bit ahead of them with something prepared instead of something just generated on the fly.

Again, that still seems consistent with a sandbox to me. I suggest creating areas in outline form, and flesh them out based upon player interest.


RC
 

Well, again; I might be channelling some of the other discussion on the Circvs, where jdrakeh presented what I think was a pretty extreme vision of what a sandbox is.

Certainly, my games are not nearly that extreme, even though I do have an almost pathological aversion to railroading my players.
 

I really like this discussion. I hope I get to use a bit of what I read here to improve my DMing.


It's fascinating how much interesting discussions turned up just because of D&D 4 - this thread (at least the last few pages) seem mostly unrelated to any edition of D&D (except where it points out the disadvantages of certain systems).
 

If I may make a couple of notes:

One of the ways of running a sandbox (and it was used by my original AD&D campaign DM) is to provide the players with a bunch of rumours & news and allow them to act on what they see fit; if they decide on the next task they want to tackle at the end of a session, then the DM can create the adventure in the break.

However, I've found when trying to run in this style, you "burn" a lot of creativity on the adventure hooks...

Incidentally, back in the Ray Winninger days of Dungeoncraft, I believe one of the big secrets of DMing was never prepare more than you had to...

Cheers!
 

Hobo,

There's no way that any DM anywhere can ever present a truly complete world...doing so falls outside of the scope of human endevour. The sandbox style aims, primarily, to give the PCs choices; to let the players drive the game (instead of being driven by it).

IMHO, of course. ;)

MerricB said:
However, I've found when trying to run in this style, you "burn" a lot of creativity on the adventure hooks...

Bullocks. Or, at least, "bullocks" in my personal case.

First off, very little of this effort should be wasted, as hooks that are not dealt with become "ongoing" and tend to recycle. Second off, the use of things like the 1e OA calendar event generator to spur ideas greatly reduces the amount of work required. Finally, I find that, in the case of prep work, doing creative things tends to make me more creative, not less. It is the mind-numbing bog-work of statting in 3.x that "burns out" DMs, IME and IMHO, not the creative aspects. Creativity is fun....a hobby unto itself!

Incidentally, back in the Ray Winninger days of Dungeoncraft, I believe one of the big secrets of DMing was never prepare more than you had to...

If by "prepare" we mean "preparing stats" I am right there with him. If by "prepare" we mean "outline what's over there for use/potential fleshing out later" then I would say that is necessary if you want to run a good sandbox-style game.

EDIT: That bit by Ray Winninger is a dangerous bit of advice if you want to run a sandbox game. The only way that the DM absolutely knows what he has to prepare is to delimit the choices available to the players. Of course, all games delimit choices to greater or lesser degrees, but if your goal is to create a sandbox, you don't want to delimit player choices more than is necessary. There is no sense in detailing the City of Brass if the PCs will never go there; there is a great deal of sense in at least outlining if the PCs have that option. This is one area where you & I differ, I suppose. I find that whatever work you put into a sandbox automatically "pays for itself" as it generates player interest, makes the world seem more real, and gives more options. Again, I am not talking about the fuddly bits of 3.x statting, which I will grant you is the polar opposite of creativity (except when folks like Boz or frankthedm are doing it!)

RC
 
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