4e Development Trends

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think that making the game more SAD actually improves the games options. If the assumption is that your character is going to have an 18 or 20 in your primary (like it already does) embrace that design restraint but don't make more design requirements like secondaries and tertiaries. That just muddies the water and makes characters forced into certain stat placements and abilities. Why needlessly do that? Open it up give more options. Do you really expect that every class (they are planning on quite a few) is going to get the necessary development space to make every nuanced option a reality. I don't, I think that is a pipe dream.

Why bother with having "more options" if they don't affect my character?
Ideally, _every_ stat combination should lead to interesting characters. But that doesn't mean we remove "MAD". It just means that every character needs a different set of ability scores he will want.

What is the purpose of playing a Fighter with an INT of 14? Just to have a figure on your stat block saying your character is smart? Or do you want it to have it a mechanical impact, so that through the resolution mechanics it becomes apparent that you are indeed playing a smart fighter and not just the very strong fighter or the charismatic fighter.

3E gave meaning to the INT of 14 by giving you extra skill points and you qualifying for some interesting (combat-related) feats.
4E gives a lot less meaning to a "smart" Fighter per se, though with a high INT, he can qualify for multiclassing with the Wizard class, which can grant some neat benefits and certainly helps to distinguish your Fighter from a Fighter with an INT of 8 or 10 that could never qualify for that.

Of course, you could remove all secondary stat requirements and just allow picking up Combat Expertise (3E) or the Wizard multi-class feat. But then, why have the ability score in the first place? If you use it for nothing more than maybe a skill check (or maybe not even that, because that makes having specific secondary stats high too important?)...

 

[Joshua Randall]

I don't grok all the comments about "all characters are cookie cutter". Sure, all character in a given class have a defined primary ability score (or choice between two), but after that the ground is fairy open to player choice.

Just as an example, consider work done in this WotC CharOpt thread about ranger builds to identify the following possibilities:

[sblock]Pit Fighter/Son of Mercy
Recommended Ability Score Arrays, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. This is the default array, and the one I personally prefer.
2. Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. If you favor the higher AC of Plate over the higher mobility of Scale, this is your array.
3. Str 13, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8. This array, although unable to use the Pit Fighter path powers, is a capable Ranged force.
4. Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8. This array allows Dwarves to match up to Shifters in the Str/Wis spread.

Battlefield Archer/Sharpshooter
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 10, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8. This is the default array, and the one I personally prefer.
2. Str 11, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8. This array hands you a bit more Wisdom for your rider effects. Favored by Battlefield Archers.

Stormwarden
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. This is the default array, and the one I personally prefer.
2. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8. Only races with bonuses in Wisdom (aka Elves and others with the same stat spread) can truly afford this array.

Master Infiltrator
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.

Borderlands Marshal
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. Scale Armor wearers favor this array; it works for Axes, Heavy Blades, or Flails.
2. Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Plate Armor wearers favor this array; it's basically Axes or Hammers only here.
3. Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Hide Armor wearers favor this array; Flail and Heavy Blade wielders have almost exclusive preference here.

Warpriest
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.
2. Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10. If your race has a Dexterity bonus, you can take this array instead.

Kensei/Pathfinder
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. Scale Armor wearers favor this array; it works for Axes, Heavy Blades, or Flails.
2. Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Plate Armor wearers favor this array; it's basically Axes or Hammers only here.
3. Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. Hide Armor wearers favor this array; Flail and Heavy Blade wielders have almost exclusive preference here.

Shock Trooper
Recommended Ability Scores, before racial adjustments:
1. Str 16, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. This is the default array, and the one I personally prefer.
2. Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. This array strikes a nice balance between Dexterity and Wisdom. You might want Scale armor if you use it, though...[/sblock]

That's a whole crapload of stat arrays, and that is one guy's opinion from one thread about one class.

With fighters, there are different stat arrays for the different weapon types. (And funniliy enough, fighters might be one of the least SAD classes in the game now.) Actually, choice of weapon type affects all weapon-using classes to some extent.

And for any base class, your choice of multiclass and/or Paragon Path and/or Epic Destiny is going to partly determine the stats you start with -- or if you prefer it the other way around, the stats you start with is going to party determine your suitability for a given multiclass and/or PP and/or Ep.Dest.

Are there certain builds that use obvious combinations and require obvious stat arrays? Sure. So what? In a year we'll have more books, more options, and more ways to jigger around your stats.

Where is the cookie cutter again?

 

[Stalker0]

I think the best way to decrease the SAD issue is to increase the prevalence of effect based powers.

What 3e had that 4e is currently lacking is straight up "buffs".

In 3e, it didn't matter if your cleric had a 22 wisdom or a 14, he could still cast divine power and massively boost his combat power.

I think 4e needs to return to that. For example, if I had a series of fighter powers that gave me a bonus based on my wisdom (and was an effect, meaning I don't have to hit to get that bonus) then suddenly I can make a wis fighter that is still useful in combat. I mean a good strength is ALWAYS useful, and always will be, the goal needs to be to provide tradeoffs.

 

[Nymrohd]

Most classes do have powerful effects that are linked to powers other than the primary. Almost any built will want to max out at least one score other than the attack score.

If the math of the game is balanced without Weapon Expertise and it is not a stealth fix, then that alone provides you with a lot of space to branch out from your main score without harming your character too much.

 

[Joshua Randall]

For example, if I had a series of fighter powers that gave me a bonus based on my wisdom

I suggest you take a look at the Pit Fighter paragon path, as well as some of the feats and powers with Wis-related effect.

Wis-fighters are good.

 

[Nymrohd]

I took that as a bad example, Wis is awesome for the fighter but the concept of what he said still stands for some classes.

 

[Jack Colby]

You're also an average fighter in 3.x and 4th if you've only got a strength of 10 or 11.
However, all editions punish you for being a suboptimal fighter when you're strenght score is not really high. Because you also get more experience points for having higher strength, you hit better and do more damage, as you point out further down, such a fighter is several billion times more desirable than the STR 11 fighter in whatever edition there might be, be it original, 1st edition, Advanced, 2nd edition, 3.x or the newer 4th edition.
Being a suboptimal character that doesn't do a good job with somebody else's character who simply got much more luckier when rolling stats is being punishment in itself.

I'm tired and sick of rolling stats, as I did in Wizardry, or in AD&D 2nd edition. And if I want to be a smart and strong fighter, I can easily do this in a point-buy system which exists in 3.x and 4th edition, without being penalized like in prior edition.

Not really the same though, is it? In those editions, yes, a high STR would be good, but the game math does not assume you will have it and calculate monster defenses, etc. around that. The high score makes you exceptional, since it's largely luck that gets it for you. It's not punishment to be average, whether or not you personally may feel like it is. That doesn't change the game assumptions, it's just your own view of it.

Kind of like how magic items used to go above and beyond the average and truly boost your power, unlike now where they are more average and figured into the game math as expected bonuses. The exceptional has become the norm, and that makes it not exceptional anymore. It also means you need these "Exceptional" stats and items to be competent, whereas in older editions they were a luxury. A highly desirable luxury, but still not essential to success.