D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Aloïsius]

Tharizdun, evil-tainted elemental.... It looks like demon are all about elemental evil. I guess they can make a good site based adventure about it

I think demon lords will be akin to the various "elder" evil things : Zuggtmoy, Juiblex, Baphomet, Kostchtchie... rather than Grazzt, Malcanthet, or Orcus.
I may be wrong about this last one, given his presence on the MM cover...

 

[fuindordm]

Excellent stuff.

I really like the idea of Devils being in some sense trapped. If supports all kinds of traditional literary tropes. Give me a Faustian bargain over a Planar Ally any day!

The Elemental Tempest sounds interesting too.

As for the Great Wheel... for those who like it, there's nothing easier to tack on. There's still an astral plane, and there are still afterlife domains. Their "arrangement" in "astral space" is probably just a feeble mortal imagining of their true structure. Why, different societies would probably choose to imagine them in different ways!

And you might be pleasantly surprised--perhaps the PH gives sixteen sample deities, each with their own astral domain.

 

[delericho]

I like the way they tie together Tharizdun, the demons, and Elemental Evil. Though I'm not entirely sure why they're building a new campaign setting and cosmology using key elements of what has gone before, while at the same time throwing out much of what has gone before and at the same time pulling in gods from real-world mythologies to pad out their core deities list?

Surely, if designing a new setting, they would be better off using all new (D&D-original) deities?

Also, while this is emphatically not how I would redo the Demons and Devils, it doesn't suck.

I never thought the succubus made sense as a demon either.

Marriage has traditionally held a very key role in the building of society, and hence is generally Lawful. Succubi undermine marriage by means of seduction, unravelling that social fabric... and hence are Chaotic. Chaotic Evil outsiders are Demons.

They had me at Tharizdun.

Sadly, they lost me at 'Asmodeus'.

 

[Aloïsius]

Though I'm not entirely sure why they're building a new campaign setting and cosmology using key elements of what has gone before, while at the same time throwing out much of what has gone before and at the same time pulling in gods from real-world mythologies to pad out their core deities list?

I guess this is just re-interpretation of what existed before, be it in D&D or in standard fantasy. Because, Asmodeus, Thor or Ishtar (if they use it) are standard fantasy, as much as Vecna or Tharizdun.
Who has the IP rights about Crom, btw ? (Conan's God, not the Dark Sun illustrator )

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't see why making demons and devils as different as possible is desirable, or how it aids play in any practical manner. The author of that article seems to take that for granted, as are many of the posters here. The advantage, though, is lost on me.

Well, it is certainly something that has bothered ME a lot in the past. In 2E I completely redid the extraplanar beings to make sure that it would be fairly easy to tell from which plane they originated just by looking at them.

For example my reimagined demons were heavily inspired by Lovecraftian Mythos creatures who could turn you insane by their mere otherworldly presence. The NE inhabitants resembled apocalyptic horsemen draining colours and emotions from wherever they went, creatures from Limbo were always surrounded by everchanging light/aura effects, etc.

In my experience making the differences between the planes and their inhabitants more distinct and easily recognizable for the player characters simply helps to visualize and enjoy the setting more.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

Well, that was the first read that left me completelty underwhelmed.
Ok, in the last few years, the line between Demons and Devils blurred because of cheming Demon Lords.
But it looks to me as if they saw the problem and choose to kick the ball to the other end of the field.
Demons as almost mindless slayers? To me that is not what evil and chaos is. Chaos does not mean stupid. Look at Moorcocks Chaos Gods. They embody Chaos but the are NOT STUPID SAVAGES (only sometimes if it suits them or the mood strikes them).
Evil and Chaos for me is the utter disregard to everything but myself. If I have to destroy the multiverse to get out of my bordeom I will do it without a second thought.
Chaos is everchanging. Today I we plan to infect the material plane with the savage Tide and tomorrow I we start collecting stamps and basball cards.
If I strike a bargain I may honor it but if the mood strikes me I may kill the puny summoner.
I may hatch a plan to take over the abyss taking thousands of years to weave an intricate net only to decide that brute force serves me better.
That is Chaos, unfathomable and everchanging.

The new WoC Demons are only Barbarians with Claws and special Abilities.

And how lame is the Asmodeus story? He killed a God and the God's dying curse turned him into a devil?
Come on, John Milton made a better pitch in 1674 with his Paradise Lost. The Angels were banned from Heaven because the rebelled. It is Satan's Pride that makes him fight against Heaven. It his Pride that makes him defy Heaven even in the Pit (Better to rule in hell than to serve in Heaven). Rather than to serve the newly created man Satan decides to go and tempt Adam and Eve. Sounds better to me than being cursed for killing a God and deciding to be evil and tempt mankind.

And there is even a contradiction in the setting. If Hell is a prison, how can the Devils react "eagerly" to summonings? And if summonings act like summon spells in 3x for only a short duration, how can they form complicated pacts ("Sorry, have to go now, summon time's up, we finish the next paragraph with the next summoning, Cherio")?

And last but not least, why do they use a Greyhawk Deity (Tharizdun) for the generic Points of Light Setting? Is it so hard to whip up another name or is PoL some twisted Greyhawk?

Nope, these ideas are neither original nor creative but a seccond rate mixup of older ideas and thoughts.

 

[Jhaelen]

Who has the IP rights about Crom, btw ? (Conan's God, not the Dark Sun illustrator )

Umm, that would be Brom...

But that's something I'm finding a bit odd, too. Reusing and mixing names that are closely associated with different campaign settings or even real-world mythologies makes me a bit uncomfortable. though I have to admit that Tharizdun is a perfect match for the reimagined Abyss.

Still, I would prefer it if they provided a list of example names taken from different sources for each of their deities or even no names at all. So everyone could choose which ones they'd like to use for their campaigns.

 

[w_earle_wheeler]

I like how they are continuing to define the roles of monsters (in this case, Devils and Demons) but once again the fluff changes are turning me off.

Too bad, because the core design of 4e seems to be really well done.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Primordial just means existing first: existing at the beginning of time or of the development of something. The primordials in Exalted, the Titans in greek myths, the things in forgotten realms that I can't remember.. Scaled Ones I think, Demon Rajahs and Progenitor Dragons in Eberron, Tiamat and her brood from Sumer, Ymir the Frost Giant and many many others.

The last Dragon issue describes the Ancient Brethren:

-Asmodeus (possible aspect of The Serpent)
-Janzirai (quoatls)
-The Lady of Pain (possible daughter of Poseidon)
-The Serpent (possible aspect of Asmodeus)

I'm still going with the Great Wheel cosmology for my current Planescape (of course) campaign, but I can see why they wanted to clean up the planes/fiends etc what with:


The Nine Hells/Baator:

-Ancient Baatorians
-Devils
-Baatezu


The Abyss:

-Demons
-Obyriths
-Tanar’ri


Gehenna:

-Baernaloths
-Yugoloths



...Etc, etc.

 

[Just Another User]

On a second note, how is anyone excited by this. This is fairly generic stuff. What is this, the State of the Union address?

Hey, it is 4D!, they could say it use hit points and people would be excited about it.