D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[StarFyre]

hmmm

I am a huge planescape fan and my current campaign is PS, that i will convert into 4e somehow.

Overall, I don't see how much has changed here in terms of the monster design.

Demons are still meant to be psychotic. Devils are meant to be tacticians, tempting mortals, etc (yes, a couple demons do that too, but in different methods).

I find that the tone of the creature is up to the DM. If DM knows what they are doing, they can have demons be as psychotic as they like.

That said, other than the asmodeus et al being fallen angels....i don't mind the changes.

Planescape can still exist since the key to it...the planes and sigil, you can rename them, move them around, etc. it makes very little difference. the biggest key is, the portals via sigil, can go ANYWHERE.

Not only can a DM use older cosmology, but a DM could just say the portals in sigil go to the new planes, etc...or even move sigil to be hovering over eberron.

DM > God

You can even create gods in your campaign

My cosmology is asmodeus, jazeiran, lady of pain, mediator, couple other beings are the most ancient in the universe...part of the essence of magic/reality itself.

So I use asmodeus as a god anyways... If i have to move the hells around a bit, not a problem.

The abyss, I can cool moving it to intersect to a rift within the elemental tempest, whatever that is, but to me, it sounds like a point where all elemental planes intersect in a violent storm of a plane.

I use that now, and have subintersections that make the dust planes, ice, etc.

I think this is manageable and I would be very interested, if once we know more, if people want to contact me, we can maybe make up a new 'great wheel styled' artwork based on an optional 4E styled planar map that PS DMs can use

I am thinking of doing one myself for my reference.

Sanjay

 

[delericho]

Demons as almost mindless slayers? To me that is not what evil and chaos is. Chaos does not mean stupid.

Yeah, that was something I didn't like in the new fluff. What I got from it was, "this is why Law will always triumph over Chaos - because Chaos is dumb."

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Yeah, that was something I didn't like in the new fluff. What I got from it was, "this is why Law will always triumph over Chaos - because Chaos is dumb."

Isn't that how it is in Planescape, though? Vast hordes of demons fighting smaller armies of devils, locked in a perpetual war because the devils' tactics overcome the demons' numbers?

 

[StarFyre]

no

the demons win wars as well.

the war is ongoing because it's the concept of balance overall.

tactics vs power/numbers.

if one side wins here, that same side may lose in another encounter. overall , no ground is gained.

As well, both sides of fiends are technically infinite (even baatezu, at this fortress, if any are killed, new ones are immediately created there)...so it really doesn't matter.

Sanjay

 

[Knight Otu]

I don't really see anything in that fluff that forces demons to act stupid or even mindless, honestly. Sure it uses the word "savage," says they squander their resources and makes them sound rather disorganized. Doesn't seem too inappropriate to me, and is stated in a way that makes it sound more like a guideline rather than a "programming." It really doesn't seem like it removes the potential of grand-scale demonic actions. They'll just need a bit of whipping.

If Hell is a prison, how can the Devils react "eagerly" to summonings?

How else should they react to a (temporary) hole in the prison wall? "Meh, I like it better here, but whatever, I'll go through"?

And if summonings act like summon spells in 3x...

Ahem. We're not even quite certain yet how wizards work in 4E. Making assumptions about a specific subset of wizardly powers or magical groupings is rather premature. Summoning may mean the same things in both 3.X and 4E. Or Summoning in 4E may be what would be Planar Binding in 3.X. Or Calling. Or even Conjuration as a whole.

 

[Stoat]

I like the new Devil cosmology. Its got a ring of real-world tradition to it, and doesn't seem to futz too much with fluff/canon from previous editions.

The new Demons are leaving me cold. I much preferred the Obyriths and FC1's hints at ancient Lovecraftian madness.

Of course, nothing says ancient madness like Tharizdun, so hopefully it won't take too much work to bring 4E in line with FC1

 

[Andor]

I think Tielflings are definitely going to be of a devilish origin, likely with the background of their forefathers seducing mortals, etc. I's also like to think that Tielflings have a +Cha still, to reflect that deceptive side.

Amen! That Cha penalty to 3e Tieflings bugged me every single time I looked at the blighters. What ever happend to the saturnine good looks and fiendish charm of 2e Tieflings?

 

[DaveMage]

Well, that was uber-crappy.

Yep, pretty much....

 

[sckeener]

I'm sorry...I don't run my demon's as brutes. That may be the typical way that gamers run encounters with demons and devils...(that demons charge without thinking and devils plot and plan) but equating chaos with destruction is limiting.

I really hope they are getting rid of alignment because that is the only reason why I might accept this change.

If alignment is gone then I should stop thinking about demons= Chaotic Evil.

Also in that case I can also think of Devils that reject the structure in Hell and go to the abyss for freedom...better to rule in the abyss than serve in Hell

Sometimes I like to run stories where one of the BBEGs works with the players to thwart other BBEGs...Demon's were wonderful for that.

Still I can't see the demon lords we know and like being used in this base way...ok...Juiblex
for sure...but not the others. It is like they are taking FC1 and tossing it and keeping only FC2.....

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

All the more reason for people like Necromancer Games or Green Ronin to write it and sell to people who prefer that method.

Ding, ding! Ding, ding, ding! This is not a problem, but a business opportunity. I'm sure some version of Great Wheel/Planescape Bllood War stuff will show up in 3rd party books.