D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Baby Samurai]

I think balors should "kill pit fiends and take their stuff"

I feel the opposite – the Pit Fiend should mug the Balor and take his sword and whip.

To go along with the devils often use weapon and demons are more fang/claw boys.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It's pretty clear that the various planes aren't alignment mapped--The Hells and The Abyss apparently aren't even in the same 'region' of the new Cosmology! I'm going to guess here that many Devils may well be lawful--but that they aren't inherently Lawful beings (Succubi may still be chaotics, for instance).

Yeah good point. It seems alignment in 4e will be downgraded in importance, no longer part of the structure of the universe.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I don't really see anything in that fluff that forces demons to act stupid or even mindless, honestly. Sure it uses the word "savage," says they squander their resources and makes them sound rather disorganized. Doesn't seem too inappropriate to me, and is stated in a way that makes it sound more like a guideline rather than a "programming." It really doesn't seem like it removes the potential of grand-scale demonic actions. They'll just need a bit of whipping.

However, wholesale slaughter, pointless suffering, and terrifying devastation call for a demon. A villain or even a player character might bargain with devils, but those who conjure demons do so only to wreak havoc on their enemies.

That does not sound as if Demons use sophisticated plans to achieve something, even if it is to get more personal power. They are just like army ants.

I see the idea behind this clear design. Fluff follows function. In the 4th mechanics devils will be "manipulators" (or whatever they will be called) and demons will simply be brutes.

That will make Demons really interesting. You can not talk with them, you have to kill them. Nothing else is possible.

No Savage Tide anymore. Demogorgon would not make such an elaborate plan. He rather attack everything himself.

The whole Waukeen affair in FR never happend. Grazzt is just another engine of destruction, only there to wreak havoc.

And Orcus, poor Orcus is just another mindless brute with a big club. Just there to deliver EPs to the PCs.

 

[Shade]

Wow. I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

See you all in 5e!

 

[Baby Samurai]

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

In some countries, they only eat vomit.

 

[Ms Frost]

Is the malebranche in any 3e books? That guy looks like fun.
-blarg

Yup, it's in the Fiend Folio, and also in the Fiendish Codex II, where it was reworked a little bit to make it a bit tougher.

 

[Mercule]

I am a little disappointed that Demons are just "Kill destroy obliterate". That makes them pretty one-dimensional. Although I suppose that Demon Lords who plot could be looking to basically 'destroy everything' but on a more long term basis, more like anarchists and terrorists rather than simply arson or a murder spree.

In my homebrew, demons and devils are both fallen creatures, cursed to oblvioun at the end of time. The difference is in how they handle it. Devils seek to, basically, gather land (souls, planar real estate, raw magic power, etc.) in the hope of either taking over and changing the rules or getting the leverage to get the uber-powers that levied that curse to recant. Demons, on the other hand, have given up and accept their fate and are just trying to take as much with them as they can.

One of the PCs IMC is posessed by a glabrezu. Mostly, the demon rides or acts as an ally, but he's been known to punish her for misbehavior. He is masquerading as a magic sword (though the posession has moved from the sword to the mage) and has declared his intent to make the mage the most potent wizard on the planet. To that end, he gets her to trade certain tasks for certain favors. He has even convinced her to commit ritual human sacrifice and feed from the soul energy to rebuild (ala PHB2) some non-wizard levels to wizard levels.

How does this differ from a devil, you ask? Well, first of all, the glabrezu isn't interested in the mage's soul. He's interested in the destruction he can sow through her. People are more easily corrupted by another person than by an obvious demon, which makes more souls for the pit (oblivion). Also, this PC is right in the midst of a pretty significant event which could destroy huge portions of the multiverse. Since she's unaware of exactly the stakes she's playing with, the demon is wonderfully poised to push things just wrong. The position isn't really such that a land-grab is possible, so a devil wouldn't be interested, but it's perfect for a demon.

So, the demon is both motivated purely by destruction and a cunning planner with foresight. Works out nicely, actually.

 

[grimslade]

The change is evolutionary not revolutionary

I like this Design article. There are differences between demons and devils again. The lines had been blurring for a while. This reorganizes and delineates what is DEVIL and what is DEMON. There are strong ties to the Temple of Elemental Evil in the 4E fluff. We have Tharizdun, the abyss in the Elemental Tempest, and there is a reference to Imix in a DDM article. The cosmology article that will out on Wednesday will clear up some more things.

I think alignment is gone as we knew it. Was it Andy Collin's blog that said:

Do you think you know what the word Chaotic means? Really? Are you sure? Care to place a wager?

Demons serve to bring about entropy through evil. Either with their bare claws or through sowing the seeds of destruction in mortal realms, i.e. plague, famine and war. The order of the world is reduced to the chaos-that-came-before.
Devils want to subvert the order of the world for their own purpose. They twist whatever they interact with, but the form stays the same.

Chaotic is much more active in this fluff. It is a cancer in creation. Tharizdun is chained but the seed of evil, that rent a hole in the Elemental Tempest itself, still creates twisted abominations. Is Chaotic the new evil? Is chaotic the Lovecraftian form of anti-reality or proto-reality? If the abyss is a hole in the Elemental Tempest, where does that corrupting hole go?

 

[Glyfair]

Who has the IP rights about Crom, btw ?

It's apparently complicated and not 100% clear. Some issue with changes in copyright law, disputes over whether the copyrights were properly renewed and disputes about who had the initial copyrights have made it a big mess. Some believe that all of the pulp published Conan tales are public domain.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

How else should they react to a (temporary) hole in the prison wall? "Meh, I like it better here, but whatever, I'll go through"?

I have visions of a malebranche in an orange jumpsuit, picking up trash on the side of the road on the way to the City of Greyhawk.