D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

Tharen the Damned said:
That does not sound as if Demons use sophisticated plans to achieve something, even if it is to get more personal power. They are just like army ants.
To me, it sounds like exactly what it says - 4E Demons are spirits of destruction, 4E devils are spirits of corruption. The methods of specific demons aren't described, just general terms.
>They don't negotiate, sure, but can you talk a demon into helping you destroying something else? It sounds possible, for the right price, but you'll watch your back regardless.
>They have little desire to organize, but "unspeakable yearnings" or the whipping of more powerful demons can make them work together. Even if you're a balor, you're much better at bringing that distant dwarven kingdom down if you got help.
>They thrive on destruction, and slow destruction still is destruction. The intelligent demons should recognize and appreciate that. They thrive on destruction, and destruction that they only remotely helped with is still destruction, and most demons recognize that ("more destruction by affiliation."
>They don't build anything lasting. So that tower they are building on the edge of the abyss? Be afraid of what it will do when it is completed, especially since it isn't meant to last.
>Sophisticated plans are nice and well, but no smart demon will depend on them alone. As spirits of destruction, they'll realize that even immaterial things like plans can be destroyed. But as long as the plan results in more destruction that it could have wreaked alone, they won't complain as much. They just received new targets for destruction, after all, namely these plan-destroying people.
 

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Tharen the Damned said:
This is exactely how I like the Demons.
But for me the Fluff text in the article portrays them as Barbarians who just rage and destroy without a cunning plan behind it.
That is what irks me.
That kind of worries me as well, but I really take the article as significantly simplified. I am taking this to believe that the Demons still plan and are not jujst mindless savages, but their plans and goals will most likely be shorter term and and simpler to comprehend, whereas the Devils' plans may be very long term and have consequences that are hard to really fathom or determine without significant knowledge.
 




Askaval30 said:
Wonder why Shemeska hasn't replied to this thread yet. I personally really liked the Wheel... am saddened to see it go. :(

Our favourite Arcanaloth replied to these changes over at the WoTC boards. Right here.
 

Rechan said:
Seriously, what problems do you have at your game table?

Good question:

1) I'm frequently bothered by the 'step problem', wherein two combatants are supposedly locked in continious mortal combat but because of the fact that the game is turned based and the base steps (5' and 30') are longer than the range of weapons, one participant can step out of combat and do something unmolested while the other fiddles around waiting for his turn. This is the problem AoO's are supposed to solve, but in practice when using minatures (which I sometimes find fun and interesting), most of the time a creative player can find a way to step out of the melee and take 5 with no consequences. Readied actions in theory can counter this, but readied actions are problimatic except in narrow situations. I don't have a solution here and one is needed.
2) Many of the base classes in the game aren't generic enough - barbarian, druid, paladin, etc. - to capture all the possible variaty in the game. Multiclassing isn't a perfect option, and PrC's suck. I've cludged together some more generic base classes - fanatic, champion, shaman, explorer, etc. - from my own ideas and various sources, but I'd like to at least see some a professional takes on that, some alternate ideas, players handbooks that would actually be more useful to me/my players, etc.
3) Non-spellcasters start to suck once the big game changing spells start coming online. I've made some effort to correct that, but I'd like to see some different takes on it.
4) The base diplomacy rules are terrible. There are much better house rules out there, but even they aren't perfect. Let's at least take a swing at fixing them without adding tons and tons of new and likely arbitrary rolling that gets in the way of roleplay. Keep it simple so my players stay in character.
5) The base hide/spot rules are terrible, confusing, and highly abusable. Virtually anything would be better. I have some ideas for a really elegant system, but I've never had time to put it together.
6) The base mundane crafting rules are terrible. A few authors have made stabs and better systems, but I've not seen anything that is really well done. It's a minor point (even in gritty campaigns, not alot of crafting goes on), but its one of those things I'd like for completeness.
7) The base profession rules are terrible and very very vague. Basically, they cover all the gaps in the current skill system and yet vaguely overlap with just about every other skill in the game. Some professions almost seem like they need to be elevated up to skill descriptions. A few authors have made attempts at fixing some of the glaring problems, but there has never been a comprehensive layout. The result of this is I often want to call for profession skill checks (lawyer, boating, sailor, etc.) for skills not covered by other skills, but typically my players, seeing no obvious benefit in the rules from the profession skills, don't feel like its a good investment. So I have something of a fairness issue. What's the sense in designing challenges for skills no one could in fairness anticipated needing given how easy the rules make it to overlook.
8) The whole expected wealth level issue makes it really hard at times to design adventures the way I want to. It's created a sense of player entitlement, like PC's should always be on welfare. Players are uncomfortable not having thier 'expected wealth level', even if I balance the challenges so that at level 10 I only expect them to face CR 9 or something. Treasure can't really be hidden, because PC's _have_ to find it (or at least think that they do). Equipment can't be destroyed, because effectively this maims the character. I don't remember having this problem in 1st edition at all, probably because compared to monsters PC's were just so powerful that they didn't need the stuff as much. I hear talk from WotC of addressing this issue, but so far I'm not particularly impressed with the rumors coming out. I'm also worried because at an economic level, it makes no sense for WotC to deemphasis the loot in D&D. 'Loot' is too important to selling thier product (much the same way the PrC's have become).

I'm sure there are lots of other points I could come up with, but those are the sorts of things I expected to see addressed.
 

Knight Otu said:
To me, it sounds like exactly what it says - 4E Demons are spirits of destruction, 4E devils are spirits of corruption. The methods of specific demons aren't described, just general terms.
>They don't negotiate, sure, but can you talk a demon into helping you destroying something else? It sounds possible, for the right price, but you'll watch your back regardless.
>They have little desire to organize, but "unspeakable yearnings" or the whipping of more powerful demons can make them work together. Even if you're a balor, you're much better at bringing that distant dwarven kingdom down if you got help.
>They thrive on destruction, and slow destruction still is destruction. The intelligent demons should recognize and appreciate that. They thrive on destruction, and destruction that they only remotely helped with is still destruction, and most demons recognize that ("more destruction by affiliation."
>They don't build anything lasting. So that tower they are building on the edge of the abyss? Be afraid of what it will do when it is completed, especially since it isn't meant to last.
>Sophisticated plans are nice and well, but no smart demon will depend on them alone. As spirits of destruction, they'll realize that even immaterial things like plans can be destroyed. But as long as the plan results in more destruction that it could have wreaked alone, they won't complain as much. They just received new targets for destruction, after all, namely these plan-destroying people.

If Demons are like that I will be happy. But I am worried that they will be not like that. But all I can do for now is to hope for the best and wait for the MM.
 


Seems like a change to Tharizdun

Tharizdun's worship in WG4 seemed like a sham to hide his true nature. Elemental Evil was a put-on religion used as a cloak.

Now it has a basis in the "reality" of the planes.

Where's the pseudo-religious cult?
 

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