D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Blind Azathoth]

It's the Ultimate Marvelization of the D&D metasetting. The Ultimate universe pissed off some Marvel fans, but it also succeeded in bringing in a whole lot of new readers and bringing back lots of lapsed ones. It's impossible to know yet whether Ultimate D&D will do the same, but it's clearly a similar impulse with the designers.

Well, this is only the "Ultimate Marvel" version of D&D if they also continue to support the original D&D flavor and cosmology and what-have-you alongside of this new version. Since they, so far, don't seem to be doing that, it sounds more like Casino Royale or Batman Begins for the Bond and Batman films--it's not a reboot that stands beside the original but has replaced it.

 

[Shade]

It's the Ultimate Marvelization of the D&D metasetting. The Ultimate universe pissed off some Marvel fans, but it also succeeded in bringing in a whole lot of new readers and bringing back lots of lapsed ones. It's impossible to know yet whether Ultimate D&D will do the same, but it's clearly a similar impulse with the designers.

I don't get this oft-repeated analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Ultimate Universe titles get released in parallel to the standard universe?

4e seems to be the Ultimate Universe completely at the expense of the existing universe.

 

[Sir Brennen]

BTW, here are some comments from the article's author Chris Sims, taken from the WoTC Boards:

In this short article, I couldn't do much more than make generalities.

Demons are anything but cut-and-dry killers, but they come off that way overall. Of course, as 4e develops, all the fiends will get more treatment.

Exactly what I expected. Even in the current edition, demons *are* pretty much mindless destructive hordes in the lower ranks. I think it's very faulty logic to assume this generalization now extends to more powerful demons and lords.

I also think this has ties to Andy Collins hint when he asked "Do you know what chaotic means? Are you sure?"

 

[Hussar]

I don't get this oft-repeated analogy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Ultimate Universe titles get released in parallel to the standard universe?

4e seems to be the Ultimate Universe completely at the expense of the existing universe.

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

 

[Shade]

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

It is if it ends up driving away longtime fans and significantly weakens the brand.

 

[Mirtek]

Sorry, but I don't get it why so many of you think that's so great and original.

That's as unoriginal run-of-the-mill standard fantasy cliche as you can get. Beaten to death a 1,000 times in hundreds of P&P games.

So if D&D is about to become just like the 100 other systems, where's the special reason to keep with D&D and don't just start with one of the 100 other systems that D&D now tries tr copy?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm against the changes as it basically makes demons stupid. Chaotic Evil is not Chaotic Stupid.

Well, remember that traditionally, demons and devils are the epitome of their alignments. In D&D 3.5, this is so fundamental that it's part of their subtype!

The problem with the alignments is that they are fundamental parts. No person in the real world that is extremely chaotic is capable of plotting for a long-term goal. They would even be unable to formulate such a goal. And no person that is extremely lawful would ever be able to do something creative, as this would mean changing something.

But if you make alignment tangible forces, you have to decide how to use them.
The way it is really done in D&D, there is actually a relativismn in morals and ethics, despite the rules saying that there is no real place for such a thing. Demons should not be able to work together for a long time, simply because they are evil and only care for themselves, but are also chaotic and therefore unable to consistently manipulate or even "socialize" with the people around them.

On the other hand, Lawful Good Angels would never be willing to take a life and always try to redeem evil (assuming the rules would allow such), and their strictness would make it impossible to succeed, as they can't adapt their behaviour to react fittingly to a evil creature.

Devils would probably fail everytime they need to improvise during their plans if something doesn't work out as planned (like heroes destroying a McGuffin despite impossible odds) or would need forever to create a plan that would account for all errors.

So, the D&D demons at least seem to follow the consequences implied by the alignment rules more than ever before.

 

[Hussar]

It is if it ends up driving away longtime fans and significantly weakens the brand.

The assumption here is that the standard cosmology was some sort of draw to the brand in the first place and not something that pushed people away or was ignored entirely.

 

[Deverash]

Sorry, but I don't get it why so many of you think that's so great and original.

That's as unoriginal run-of-the-mill standard fantasy cliche as you can get. Beaten to death a 1,000 times in hundreds of P&P games.

So if D&D is about to become just like the 100 other systems, where's the special reason to keep with D&D and don't just start with one of the 100 other systems that D&D now tries tr copy?

What's unique about the D&D we have now? We have devils who are trying to control everything and demons who are trying to bring it all down to their level. At the basic core, this is no different than what we have now. The fluff is better thought out, according to what little we know, than the concept of "Oh, we've been fighting each other for millenia. Why? Beats me." that was the Blood Wars.

 

[catsclaw227]

Sorry, but I don't get it why so many of you think that's so great and original.

That's as unoriginal run-of-the-mill standard fantasy cliche as you can get. Beaten to death a 1,000 times in hundreds of P&P games.

I never thought it was totally original. But I still like it.

So if D&D is about to become just like the 100 other systems, where's the special reason to keep with D&D and don't just start with one of the 100 other systems that D&D now tries tr copy?

Because I LIKE TO PLAY D&D. It is my favorite pastime, and it gives me pleasure as I find time to wedge it between life's responsiblities. I have a job, family, friends. D&D is the fun (and the NFL) that I partake in when I am not busy with the other things.