D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Baby Samurai]

I think alignment is gone as we knew it.

I heard it will no longer have any mechanical affect on play (god willing).

 

[Nightchilde-2]

This gets the Prince Nightchilde Seal of Approval.

 

[Stone Dog]

Sure, but do any of those myths call them "the primordials." It's the word I associate with Exalted, not the idea of gods defeating their predecessors.

No, but that is because their names are still remembered. In Exalted the generic term primordials is used because the names of the beings were warped, changed and destroyed during their defeat. It is useless to call them by their original names because they don't have original names anymore. The titans were primordial creatures. Ymir was a primordial creature. So was Tiamat and Cthulu and Elder Things. You could even call Washington a primordial american, but you wold sound very very silly. It really is a very generic term.

 

[grimslade]

That does not sound as if Demons use sophisticated plans to achieve something, even if it is to get more personal power. They are just like army ants.

I see the idea behind this clear design. Fluff follows function. In the 4th mechanics devils will be "manipulators" (or whatever they will be called) and demons will simply be brutes.

That will make Demons really interesting. You can not talk with them, you have to kill them. Nothing else is possible.

No Savage Tide anymore. Demogorgon would not make such an elaborate plan. He rather attack everything himself.

The whole Waukeen affair in FR never happend. Grazzt is just another engine of destruction, only there to wreak havoc.

And Orcus, poor Orcus is just another mindless brute with a big club. Just there to deliver EPs to the PCs.

What was the end result of the Savage Tide if it wasn't stopped by the PCs. Lots of destruction right, more than Demogorgon could do with an avatar with just his bare hands? Score one for the agents of elemental evil!
Demon Lords are not dumb, they will use whatever they have to do the most damage. They will use every troop to attack the City of Brass, they will hold no reserves. Magic items? Used at the first opportunity to cause the most harm. Using a cult to unleash a horrible plague in a famine struck area. More destruction! Start a fire in the elven woods and make a human kingdom look responsible to spark a war. Lots of sweet, sweet entropy.
Demons do not look to hold onto anything, they just want to watch the world burn. The more wood on the fire the better. Graz'zt may not make the cut as a demon anymore but Orcus and Demogorgon sure do.

 

[Uzzy]

It's an interesting change, but I think I'll stick with a version of the planes that lets me use the excellent Fiendish Codex's and the Demonomicon articles. I just prefer them! I like having intelligent, scheming enemies and lots of them.

 

[CleverNickName]

This all sounds pretty cool...I've never been a fan of the Great Wheel, and I have been using my own invented cosmology/mythology for years now. I'd have to read some more on this new one before I decided to use it, but it doesn't sound too terribly flawed.

Of course, for some gamers, the word "changed" is synonymous with "flawed." (shrug) To each their own, I guess.

 

[Aloïsius]

It's apparently complicated and not 100% clear. Some issue with changes in copyright law, disputes over whether the copyrights were properly renewed and disputes about who had the initial copyrights have made it a big mess. Some believe that all of the pulp published Conan tales are public domain.

If this is such a mess, WotC lawyers won't allow the compagny to take risks. Somewhat sad : I'm sure Crom is better than Kord.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

I have visions of a malebranche in an orange jumpsuit, picking up trash on the side of the road on the way to the City of Greyhawk.

Yeah, but with a fiendishly clever contract: 35 hours a week, 30 days annual leave with full payment plus public holidays. This also includes a health and pension plan.

Furthermore he is head of a workers union to wreak havoc with the employers

 

[FreeXenon]

Holy ZOMG!

This totally roxors my boxors.

I love the idea and flavor of elementally inspired/typed demons.

I am curious what Shemmy thinks about this...

 

[Tharen the Damned]

What was the end result of the Savage Tide if it wasn't stopped by the PCs. Lots of destruction right, more than Demogorgon could do with an avatar with just his bare hands? Score one for the agents of elemental evil!
Demon Lords are not dumb, they will use whatever they have to do the most damage. They will use every troop to attack the City of Brass, they will hold no reserves. Magic items? Used at the first opportunity to cause the most harm. Using a cult to unleash a horrible plague in a famine struck area. More destruction! Start a fire in the elven woods and make a human kingdom look responsible to spark a war. Lots of sweet, sweet entropy.
Demons do not look to hold onto anything, they just want to watch the world burn. The more wood on the fire the better. Graz'zt may not make the cut as a demon anymore but Orcus and Demogorgon sure do.

This is exactely how I like the Demons.
But for me the Fluff text in the article portrays them as Barbarians who just rage and destroy without a cunning plan behind it.
That is what irks me. I like to have Orcus have a clever plan to flood the prime material plane with Undead ("the even more savage tide") just because he likes to see mortal suffer.
But I do not like him as a grunting Savage flailing away with his club at hapless mortals because he likes to destroy.
I like my demon Lords to use tools, be it other Demons or Mortals or whatever, to achieve their plans.

Maybe I am wrong and Orcus is still a planner and shemer, but the article does not leave much hope for me.