D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Grog]

If D&D 4e is released 2008 as basically a brand new game with merely the rights to put the D&D logo on front of it's books, then there is absolutely no reason to prefer 4e D&D over Dark Eye, Ars Magica, and whatever else is out there.

And there's no reason to prefer 3E D&D to any of those games, either. It's all down to individual taste. 4E D&D will stand or fall on its own merits, just as 3E did - how much similarity it bears to previous editions will have little to no impact on it.

Three certain letters on front of the book don't make the game.

Neither does the planar cosmology.

 

[Perun]

Hate to break it to you, but if Planescape and Greyhawk were really that popular, they'd still be in print, because either WotC could make money off them...

Mostly nitpicking, but Lisa Stevens, the last brand manager for Greyhawk, said:

Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.

Lisa Stevens
CEO

I got the quote off the Dragonsfoot forums here (it's quoted in the first post on the 8th page of the thread). I know I originally read it somewhere else, but can't find the link now.

Regards.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yep. I'll be happy to put money in their pockets. Unfortunately, though, much of it is WotC IP, so we won't see it until 5e, when they will probably put it back based on negative feedback.

Dante's Inferno is WotC IP? Heaven is WotC IP? The Happy Hunting Grounds? Limbo? Olympus? Asgard? Tarterus? Hades?

Very little of the D&D cosmology belongs to WotC. I can put out a book tomorrow featuring Dante's Inferno and named devils and all the rest, and WotC can't do anything more than point out that Fiendish Codex II is in full color.

The only stuff you will really miss out on is Sigil (which is very well detailed as-is) and 2E planar names, which I'd argue add very little -- and which you're free to use at home if you disagree.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I haven't read everything in the thread but, did anyone else noticed how this fallen angel concept is similar to that Demon game from White Wolf's World of Darkness?

Both are borrowing from/inspired by Milton's Paradise Lost, the coolest thing anyone was ever forced to read for English class. (Although Lord Byron's Cain & Abel is close.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

GVDammerung, please refrain from derogatory characterisations of those with differing opinions.

To dislike the changes is okay; to insult everyone who doesn't is not.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

 

[Shade]

Dante's Inferno is WotC IP? Heaven is WotC IP? The Happy Hunting Grounds? Limbo? Olympus? Asgard? Tarterus? Hades?

Very little of the D&D cosmology belongs to WotC. I can put out a book tomorrow featuring Dante's Inferno and named devils and all the rest, and WotC can't do anything more than point out that Fiendish Codex II is in full color.

The only stuff you will really miss out on is Sigil (which is very well detailed as-is) and 2E planar names, which I'd argue add very little -- and which you're free to use at home if you disagree.

And yugoloths.
And rilmani.
And slaadi and slaad lords.
And all the named demons and demon princes.
And all the named devils and archdevils.
And the Far Realm.

And so forth.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And yugoloths.

Green Ronin has a book with a very good substitute for you, assuming they're not in 4E, although we've been told they are.

And all the named demons and demon princes.
And all the named devils and archdevils.

The majority of which are from myth and legend and not anyone's IP.

And the Far Realm.

WotC hasn't produced a Far Realm book, and doesn't seem likely to do so before 4E hits shelves. I think you'll have to do what people have always done, and just go read Lovecraft. His works will still be available in 4E.

And, honestly, go look at what was in the 3E Tome of Horrors. I suspect the 4E one will make a lot of the planar grognards very happy.

 

[WayneLigon]

Given the sum total of changes thus far announced for 4e, both crunch and flavor, Wotc is significantly changing a formula that has been very successful to this point.

Probably because they don't want to spin their wheels in the sand for twenty years like TSR did and convince themselves that they were moving forward. They saw no reason to change the formula, and now they're dead. As they should be. D&D has been 'successful' for so long because it's never had a serious rival. That doesn't mean all is right with the world. People on these very boards, even the amen chorus, have long pointed out some of the rules problems that need fixing. Also, the flavor could stand a significant upgrade as well. They took some baby steps with flavor changes in 3.x and saw that it did well. Now, we'll see more change. And probably more on top of that.

 

[Grog]

And all the named devils and archdevils.

Asmodeus and Mephistopheles are WotC IP? Really?

I'll have to visit the WotC offices sometime. I'd like to borrow their time machine.

 

[Shade]

Never mind. I'm a terrible debater, so I'm sure my point is being presented poorly.

I'm fully comfortable with my imagination and ability to tweak stuff.

I'm not happy with not seeing any more official support, adventures including these iconic characters as they've traditionally been presented, and so forth.

It's all putting more work on me as the DM. Which is anithetical to 4e's supposed design paradigm.