D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Lonely Tylenol]

I know little about Graz'zt, but I will say that has some historical/mythological significance.

During the Witch Trials, there was a book known as the "Witch Hammer", which was the witch hunter's interrogation tool, which had accounts of witches' confessions. Often the interrogator would ask questions and the witch would agree. The most common account of how a Witch got her power was that she would summon Satan and would agree to be his servant, and to seal the pact he would have sex with her.

So mortal witches giving their souls over to Graz'zt seems about right.

The best part about this is that they extracted very similar "confessions" from so many women that were essentially someone's odd idea of porn. One pervert in the right place at the right time can change the world.

 

[Hussar]

I think you'll go planar before 10th level, at least in little ways. Some people have suggested that there will be tiers of difficulty for getting to various planar locations. Feywild? Dead easy. Shadowfell? Harder. Elemental Tempest? Heroic, but doable. Abyss? Epic.

Why do I think so few people use the Great Wheel? Not because it's not interesting, and not because it's canon-heavy. It's easy enough to pick up any book on the planes and just make up locations based on that. The problem is that planar travel is a high-level thing, and I think that many people prefer to play lower levels than that. You have to be a 9th level cleric or a 13th level wizard to cast it, and there aren't many places you can go that aren't horribly dangerous anyway. Once you're comfortably 15th or 16th level, you can handle a little jaunt into the Abyss, or go on a mission to rescue someone from Carceri. I think that the new system is intended to allow lower-level parties to go exploring other worlds if it suits them.

I can buy that. Actually, thinking about it, I can buy that very well.

Hrm, actually have planes that are usable. Not bad.

 

[Dacileva]

What did they (meaning Insert Being For Whom This Is Relevant) do when they abruptly lost assassins and monks? For instance, the Scarlet Brotherhood in 2nd edition?

They eventually got an organization-specific product printed with assassins and monks specifically re-created in 2nd edition rules for them.

http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Brotherhood-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Greyhawk/dp/0786913746/

 

[Lurks-no-More]

So since succubi are now devils, what plotting demons (since they've now apparently been retroactively lobotomized for the most part) work for Graz'zt? He used to have succubi working for him like Maretta in 2nd and 3rd edition. Did he just wake up one morning and half his court was gone?

Where do you get that "retroactively lobotomized" thing? I mean, seriously. Just because WotC is giving demons an overgoal of "destroy everything", it doesn't turn all demons into idiots...

 

[Patlin]

Seems to me, campaigns that have been going planar have been heading that way at around level 7 to 10. Travel is usually by plot device, rather than spell. My two anecdotes involve a game I'm DMing in LEW and one I'm playing in face to face (Demonweb Pits.)

 

[Daztur]

Where do you get that "retroactively lobotomized" thing? I mean, seriously. Just because WotC is giving demons an overgoal of "destroy everything", it doesn't turn all demons into idiots...

Right the more I read about the new demons the more I like them. I think I'll keep them and the elemental maelstorm (which they'll dominate) and give them a bit of Cthulhu flavor and keep the Shadowfell and throw out the rest of the cosmology for my homebrew. Will be a fun homebrew world with creation balancing on a knife's edge between death and chaos

 

[vagabundo]

I think you'll go planar before 10th level, at least in little ways. Some people have suggested that there will be tiers of difficulty for getting to various planar locations. Feywild? Dead easy. Shadowfell? Harder. Elemental Tempest? Heroic, but doable. Abyss? Epic.

This is the way of it, I think. I am thinking of dropping a few hints ingame over the next few months about the different planes, have some NPCs mention the Astral Sea. I'm running City of the Spider Queen, so i''ll have a look ahead to see if I can do some tie-ins. Maybe a side quest to Feywild, when they are in the deep underdark.

In 20 years of DND I have not talked once to my players about the planes, I knew they were not interested. These latest concepts I know would interest them, the images are evocative and it is straight forward.

I think I have blanked the planes before because it seemed an all or nothing affair. Loads of not very interesting places connecting in a complex fashion, that was just my impression from a quick scan of the available stuff I had. Possibly too much back story and the fact that my group rarely played characters over 15 levels before a restart didnt help.

 

[Shadeydm]

In other words, a fully-supported Greyhawk product line a la the Forgotten Realms may not be a profitable venture, but a one-shot Greyhawk Campaign Setting hardback might easily sell well enough to justify its production.

Yes and it will probably be released one month prior to the announcement of 5E...

 

[Baby Samurai]

They eventually got an organization-specific product printed with assassins and monks specifically re-created in 2nd edition rules for them.

http://www.amazon.com/Scarlet-Brotherhood-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Greyhawk/dp/0786913746/

Yep, right around the time TSR was going down the crapper.

 

[Ripzerai]

Dragonlance didn't use the Great Wheel until Planescape said it did. Ed Greenwood didn't use the Great Wheel for the Forgotten Realms until TSR said they would.

This is a myth.

Dragonlance used the Great Wheel as early as 1987, when both the Manual of the Planes and Dragonlance Adventures came out. DA didn't mention the Wheel (but described things vaguely enough that it could have been the Wheel), but the MotP mentioned a few Krynnish deities (and put kender souls in Acheron). This was long before Planescape. Then there's things like "A Stone's Throw Away," in Dragon #85, the short story where Tasslehoff meets Demogorgon. That was way back in 1984.

Forgotten Realms used the Great Wheel as early as Dragon #54, when Ed Greenwood wrote an article describing the deities of his homebrew campaign and how they fit into the official 17 outer planes. That was 1981, long before TSR bought the setting.