D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[DandD]

So since succubi are now devils, what plotting demons (since they've now apparently been retroactively lobotomized for the most part) work for Graz'zt? He used to have succubi working for him like Maretta in 2nd and 3rd edition. Did he just wake up one morning and half his court was gone?

Perhaps he'll get butt-ugly slime-creatures who can shapeshift into alluring humanoids, like that Drow Goddess, Lolth. Or his former Succubi Harem gets replaced by real mortal women, witches, who dance and frolick in the vicinity of their dark master in an neverending walpurgian night. He's after all known to have great amounts of witch followers, who do regularely visit him. Easily done.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Perhaps he'll get butt-ugly slime-creatures who can shapeshift into alluring humanoids, like that Drow Goddess, Lolth. Or his former Succubi Harem gets replaced by real mortal women, witches, who dance and frolick in the vicinity of their dark master in an neverending walpurgian night. He's after all known to have great amounts of witch followers, who do regularely visit him. Easily done.

A host of twisted, alluring (by the use of foul magic), sinful, life-leeching mortal followers is... an interesting change, and not a bad one. Being a being of lust is one thing, giving yourself to be such a being to follow Graz'zt is scary and deprived.

Cheers, LT.

 

[LoneWolf23]

Y'know, this new set-up doesn't look entirely incompatible with the idea of the Great Wheel.. Take the "Astral Sea", for exemple. Sounds to me like a Medieval-ish vision of the Astral Plane, as seen by people less prone to abstract concepts then to poetic metaphors.

I can easily conceive of the "Great Wheel" as an archipelago-like arrangement of Planes floating in the Astral Sea in a circular pattern, with the Outlands in the middle, "above" the Material Plane. The Abyss would've started out in the Elemental Tempest, but would have "broken through" to the Astral Sea as it grew and expanded..

Likewise, the Blood War? Now we have a valid reason for it beyond "Chaotic Evil vs Lawful Evil".. The Devils want to rule everything. The Demons want to tear everything down. Sounds like incompatible goals. Clearly, if one side wants to win, the other has to go.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, er, the Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game is D&D?

It's at least *cough* heavily inspired *cough* by AD&D. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Andor]

No Alignments or no rule mechanics like detect evil?
Now that would be a good move!
I absolutely hate that every evil NPC has to have ring on nondection that he can be used as a Plot device before screened by the Paladin or whomever.

In IFGS those spells are generally refered to as "Detect Plot".

 

[Hussar]

I'm with Shemeska on this one. Those that don't use the planes a lot, this has little effect on them (or, maybe they'll now start using the planes). *snip* (bold mine)

Ding ding! This got buried a few pages back, but that part I bolded is the biggest reason for making the change. For twenty some years, we've had the Great Wheel cosmology. And, it's never been overwhelmingly popular. Sure, it has its followers and it has some great writers, but, it's never really made it onto the average gaming table.

This, IMO, is an attempt to make the planes a viable place to adventure for EVERY group. Suddenly, I don't need decades of out of print books to play a canon game. I don't need to go hunt through the used bookstores to find the lore of Yugoloths.

I can use the planes, right out of core without worrying that some long time player is going to stand up and tell me I'm doing it wrong.

Think of how this gels with the 3 tier leveling system. The assumption is that third tier (20th -30th) is going to go planar. Or at least have lots of planar sorts of issues to deal with. If that's the default assumption of play, then you need to make the planes accessible to all DM's.

The Great Wheel was not accessible. There was just so much information out there that any new DM trying would quickly get buried under the tons of material.

So, instead of simply rewriting the material that came before, they are breaking with tradition and starting a new cosmology. This brings everyone back to a blank canvas. Everyone starts back at square one, to build and remake the cosmologies as they see fit instead of trying to dovetail square pegs into round holes because the mechanics didn't fit.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ding ding! This got buried a few pages back, but that part I bolded is the biggest reason for making the change. For twenty some years, we've had the Great Wheel cosmology. And, it's never been overwhelmingly popular. Sure, it has its followers and it has some great writers, but, it's never really made it onto the average gaming table.

This, IMO, is an attempt to make the planes a viable place to adventure for EVERY group. Suddenly, I don't need decades of out of print books to play a canon game. I don't need to go hunt through the used bookstores to find the lore of Yugoloths.

I can use the planes, right out of core without worrying that some long time player is going to stand up and tell me I'm doing it wrong.

Think of how this gels with the 3 tier leveling system. The assumption is that third tier (20th -30th) is going to go planar. Or at least have lots of planar sorts of issues to deal with. If that's the default assumption of play, then you need to make the planes accessible to all DM's.

I think you'll go planar before 10th level, at least in little ways. Some people have suggested that there will be tiers of difficulty for getting to various planar locations. Feywild? Dead easy. Shadowfell? Harder. Elemental Tempest? Heroic, but doable. Abyss? Epic.

Why do I think so few people use the Great Wheel? Not because it's not interesting, and not because it's canon-heavy. It's easy enough to pick up any book on the planes and just make up locations based on that. The problem is that planar travel is a high-level thing, and I think that many people prefer to play lower levels than that. You have to be a 9th level cleric or a 13th level wizard to cast it, and there aren't many places you can go that aren't horribly dangerous anyway. Once you're comfortably 15th or 16th level, you can handle a little jaunt into the Abyss, or go on a mission to rescue someone from Carceri. I think that the new system is intended to allow lower-level parties to go exploring other worlds if it suits them.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I think you'll go planar before 10th level, at least in little ways. Some people have suggested that there will be tiers of difficulty for getting to various planar locations. Feywild? Dead easy. Shadowfell? Harder. Elemental Tempest? Heroic, but doable. Abyss? Epic.

Why do I think so few people use the Great Wheel? Not because it's not interesting, and not because it's canon-heavy. It's easy enough to pick up any book on the planes and just make up locations based on that. The problem is that planar travel is a high-level thing, and I think that many people prefer to play lower levels than that. You have to be a 9th level cleric or a 13th level wizard to cast it, and there aren't many places you can go that aren't horribly dangerous anyway. Once you're comfortably 15th or 16th level, you can handle a little jaunt into the Abyss, or go on a mission to rescue someone from Carceri. I think that the new system is intended to allow lower-level parties to go exploring other worlds if it suits them.

There was an entire campaign setting that involved planar travel, usable at all levels of play. You could go into the Abyss as 1st level adventurers if you wanted to.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

There was an entire campaign setting that involved planar travel, usable at all levels of play. You could go into the Abyss as 1st level adventurers if you wanted to.

Yeah, I know. I played it. Guess what? It's one campaign setting out of a dozen. If you're playing in a core-based homebrew or the Forgotten Realms, which I think it's safe to say most gamers are (excusing Eberron from the accounting, since it has its own weirdo cosmology), you didn't grow up on the slopes of Mount Celestia, and aren't likely to think of the Plane of Fire as a good place to spend your loot. At least not until you're high-level enough to travel there and survive there for more than five minutes.

 

[Rechan]

Or his former Succubi Harem gets replaced by real mortal women, witches, who dance and frolick in the vicinity of their dark master in an neverending walpurgian night. He's after all known to have great amounts of witch followers, who do regularely visit him. Easily done.

I know little about Graz'zt, but I will say that has some historical/mythological significance.

During the Witch Trials, there was a book known as the "Witch Hammer", which was the witch hunter's interrogation tool, which had accounts of witches' confessions. Often the interrogator would ask questions and the witch would agree. The most common account of how a Witch got her power was that she would summon Satan and would agree to be his servant, and to seal the pact he would have sex with her.

So mortal witches giving their souls over to Graz'zt seems about right.