D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[mhacdebhandia]

Actually, have there been gods fighting "primordials" in real-world mythology? The titans in Greek myth weren't the primordial gods if I recall.

Uh, yeah they were. In Hesiod's Theogony, the titans were the first generation born of Gaia and Ouranos; literally, the generation before Zeus and co., who were themselves (largely) the children of the titans Kronos and Rhea.

 

[Rechan]

Arrg, doublepost.

 

[Rechan]

After some consideration, I thought I'd expand on a thought.

While your grunt or brutish demons might be very "Hulk Smash" about destruction, your scheming demons might be of the more Universal Anarchists. "Tear Everything Down." But that's hard to do with your bare claws. So it requires forethought.

Poison water supplies, blight crops, slaughter cattle wholesale, bring down plague upon plague. A rampage through a market racks up the kills, but demolishing people's very way of life will score far more collateral damage.

A beautiful peaceful kingdom reduced to a bloody revolution with riots in the streets and a decade long civil war is likely a demon's wet dream, because not only is it causing prolonged pain and suffering, but you have pulled apart the tranquility of that kingdom; you just put a big festering wound right into its heart.

The goals of the Demon Lords might be to reduce the multiverse to a post-apocalyptic wasteland where everywhere acts like the abyss; an endless cycle of violence surrounded by Pain.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Uh, yeah they were. In Hesiod's Theogony, the titans were the first generation born of Gaia and Ouranos; literally, the generation before Zeus and co., who were themselves (largely) the children of the titans Kronos and Rhea.

Which in my opinion makes Ouranos and Gaia the actual primordial gods, even if they were also sky and earth. The Olympians are the third generation warring with the second.

I'll change my question: Did the Greeks ever refer to the titans as "Primordials", or is this just from Exalted? I've never seen it anywhere else, but I'm no student of mythology.

 

[Jack99]

This also makes sense why they put the Succubus in with the Devils. She cares about corrupting mortals and snatching souls. Deceit and manipulation. Devil's bread and butter.

If she was a Demon, she'd be a fiend associated with rape, most likely.

I never thought the succubus made sense as a demon either.

Regarding the article, all I can say is: SWIIIINNNG! (I like a lot, in case someone doesnt get the reference). The names are great and evocative, the fluff is well thought out and clearly makes a distinction that has been missing forever.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Which in my opinion makes Ouranos and Gaia the actual primordial gods, even if they were also sky and earth. The Olympians are the third generation warring with the second.

Well, I'll file that under "Whatever".

 

[Celebrim]

In 4th Edition, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea (more on that in an upcoming Design & Development column).

This actually moves the official game at least partly in the direction of my homebrew (which lacks a great wheel as well and has the same concept of spiritual dominions), but I don't see any reason to impose my homebrew on the general D&D playing public.

On a second note, how is anyone excited by this. This is fairly generic stuff. What is this, the State of the Union address?

And on a third note, this is once again in the category of 'problems I don't have'.

 

[Pygon]

So, Elemental Tempest is the DnD equivalent of the Big Bang? Hmm. I'm not sure I like that.

I guess I'll have to wait and see.

As vague as 1e was about the nature of things, it allowed me to adopt my own internal recognizable interpretation of how planes and creation work, even though I have yet to be able to express it in words. I take in and add what is consistent with it, and only gloss over what doesn't.

As for the basic personality of demons and devils, I'm glad the demons are being taken in a more savage direction. Too much in 3e releases seemed to suggest that there was almost organized politics in the Abyss.

I still have to get used to the artwork, though. 4e art almost takes a detail first, personality second approach.

 

[Stone Dog]

Actually, have there been gods fighting "primordials" in real-world mythology? The titans in Greek myth weren't the primordial gods if I recall.

Primordial just means existing first: existing at the beginning of time or of the development of something. The primordials in Exalted, the Titans in greek myths, the things in forgotten realms that I can't remember.. Scaled Ones I think, Demon Rajahs and Progenitor Dragons in Eberron, Tiamat and her brood from Sumer, Ymir the Frost Giant and many many others.

 

[Stone Dog]

So, Elemental Tempest is the DnD equivalent of the Big Bang? Hmm. I'm not sure I like that.

Or any other creation myth where an orderly world is brought out of chaotic matter. It doesn't have to be the big bang, just the frothing mass out of which the world was brought. It was always there and will always be there.