D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[Brennin Magalus]

Oodalolly! I hope guardinals slaad and yugoloths get dropped along with the wheel cosmology

 

[Rechan]

HEY ORCUS.

What's your knee-jerk about this? Does it fit with your 1E feel, or you going to jettison it for the Blood War with Necro?

 

[Lackhand]

Why is that an "or"?

Or rather: "Are you going to layer the Blood War on top of this, or does it seem too antithetical/silly" is how that question seems most naturally phrased to me, since it does more to explain the Blood War for me than... many other things.

 

[William Ronald]

Y'know, I fail to see where's all this awesomeness people are raving about.

Devils as plotters/schemers -> Logical extension of them being LE. They have been this way for a long time. In Planescape the devils marched in perfect battallions.

Demons as impulse-driven destroyers -> Logical extension of them being CE. They have been this way for a long time. In Planescape the demons advanced as savage hordes.

Granted, in the past several demons have been portrayed as schemers rather than destroyers, including luminaries such as Grazzt, Lolth, Iuz, Pazuriel and nearly all mariliths. This was mostly because the authors needed to write about some big bad demon and "conniving schemer plotting the downfall of Good" yields more text than "kill kill KILL KILL!!!!".

As for the planes themselves, while it's too ealry to judge anything, I wonder why do we have to get a clear origin for something as mind-bogglingly ancient as the Outer Planes. I mean, the real world has no origin for the Christian/Jewish/Muslim Hell. The Greeks only went as far as to say that Tarterus was the son of Gaea (iirc). The Norse universe was built from Ymir, a frost giant, with no mention of how Ymir came to be. Ditto with the Greek Chaos, who preceded and gave birth to Gaea.

So for me, the descriptions of demons and devils are nothing special, just extrapolations of their traditional philosophies, and the Outer Planes are unnecessarily explained.

Well, possibly there might be a major distinction between the devil lords and archfiends is that the archfiends want to rule over what exists, not necessarily destroy it. Some may fancy keeping some places looking exactly as they are now. Some demon lords and princes may want to rule,but to destroy their enemies domains utterly - so perhaps a few might want to see other planes resemble their plane on some level. A few may wish to destroy reality and recreate it. (For a fictional treatment of this, see Lord Foul in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant -- he does not so much use a hierarchy as dominate and threaten others and wants to destroy the Land and the world, destroy his Creator and remake Creation. So, a chaotic evil demon prince can be a plotter with a long term goal involving a great deal of destruction. An archdevil might not particularly care whether violence is part of a plan to triumph over others -- a few might think it is more satisfying to trick foes than merely destroy them.)

 

[Nyeshet]

Well the most obvious reason that Asmodeus can't get out is because when he murdered his God, the Plane basically latched onto Asmodeus and said "You're the anchor, baby. You ain't going no where."

Hmm, the idea that he is bound to the plane reminds me rather strongly of Ravenloft domains, actually.

 

[helium3]

What is interesting most to me in this is that the Elemental Tempest reminds me rather strongly of the 2e Ethereal - the plane between the Prime and the Elemental Planes.

I dunno, the elemental tempest sounds a lot like Limbo to me. What with it being all chaotic and wracked with elemental storms and such.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Oodalolly! I hope guardinals slaad and yugoloths get dropped along with the wheel cosmology

I don't, not really.

Guardinals can get folded into the "angel" catagory, typically reserved for servants of deities (which also frees them up to be servants of enemy deities and thus potential foes).

Slaad are worth saving on some level, but I'm not precisely sure how.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

...and during the gods’ war with the primordials,

And here I was thinking the claims of Exalted influence were overblown!

Actually, have there been gods fighting "primordials" in real-world mythology? The titans in Greek myth weren't the primordial gods if I recall.

 

[broghammerj]

IME, most gamers that I've met outside of Internet forums don't really give two hoots about the planes or the cosmology.

Ding ding ding. Shroomy scores a knockout. End of thread. Much like my post regarding the "killing the elemental planes" I have never in 20 years of gaming sat around with one of my four previous groups and had a conversation about the problems with planes or cosmology.

 

[Rechan]

Why is that an "or"?

Or rather: "Are you going to layer the Blood War on top of this, or does it seem too antithetical/silly" is how that question seems most naturally phrased to me, since it does more to explain the Blood War for me than... many other things.

No, what I meant was "Do you see this as a Good direction, and thus scrap the Blood War for this, or do you see this as diluting the 1e feel, and thus keep the 2e Blood War".

I forget which guy (Chris from Green Ronin, Erik Mona or Orcus) said they'd continue with the Blood War/Great Wheel cosmology, and I was curious if this changed their mind or cemented their decision any.