D&D 4E 4E Devils vs. Demons article

[coyote6]

/me shakes head sadly.

You know, the fluff presented in that article would have been very nice... in an alternative campaign setting.

I think it's fairly clear that the "core implied setting" is an alternative campaign setting. It's not Greyhawk. It's not Forgotten Realms. It's not Eberron. Nor is it Dark Sun, Planescape, or any other past setting. It's the new implied setting.

When they do the FRCS, we'll see how they change it, whether they change it to match the "core setting", and, if so, how much they change it. Then we'll see what they do to Eberron. Then we'll see if they revisit Greyhawk or other settings, and if they change those.

Hopefully, they've learned that "one cosmology for all settings" is limiting, and kind of dumb.

 

[thundershot]

Wow. That was... awesome. Unfortunately, unlike the transition from other editions, I don't see how all of this will change... I wish WOTC would do "transition" adventures like they did for 2E (Die, Vecna! Die! and Apocalypse Stone). Could be fun to see the cosmology change as part of an epic adventure.

In any case, any future update to Planescape should be... interesting...




Chris

 

[blargney the second]

It's a bar-lgura demon.

Whoop, my bad. I meant the second one with the polearm.

Is the malebranche in any 3e books? That guy looks like fun.
-blarg

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wow. That was... awesome. Unfortunately, unlike the transition from other editions, I don't see how all of this will change... I wish WOTC would do "transition" adventures like they did for 2E (Die, Vecna! Die! and Apocalypse Stone). Could be fun to see the cosmology change as part of an epic adventure.

In any case, any future update to Planescape should be... interesting...




Chris

There isn't a cosmology change, and I don't think that we can expect Greyhawk, FRCS, or Planescape to be affected by this. As coyote6 points out, this is the cosmology of a new campaign setting, unrelated to the old implied setting.

 

[Sammael]

Hopefully, they've learned that "one cosmology for all settings" is limiting, and kind of dumb.

Funny you should say that. Outside of the forums, I do not know a single role-player IRL who prefers separate cosmologies. They all love the Great Wheel, and feel it is customizable enough to suit any campaign setting. I've even seen people adopt the Great Wheel to other game systems.

And yet, it's highly reviled (particularly of late) here on ENWorld for some reason. DESPITE the fact that Planescape always comes up as the second or third most popular campaign setting (behind FR and GH) in polls on a regular basis.

 

[Cam Banks]

This is terrific stuff. Much better in my opinion than the Great Wheel, and like others I think that it resonates strongly with the Mentzer/Moldvay/D&D cosmology. So in a sense, not really a 1st edition feel at all.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Cam Banks]

Funny you should say that. Outside of the forums, I do not know a single role-player IRL who prefers separate cosmologies.

Most of the D&D players I know outside of forums prefer separate cosmologies.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Shroomy]

IME, most gamers that I've met outside of Internet forums don't really give two hoots about the planes or the cosmology.

 

[Nyeshet]

The article itself is interesting for what it says of the design of the 4e cosmos.

It suggests that above the Prime there is the Astral Sea, in which can be found the domains of various deities - including Asmodius' Nine Hells domain.

On the other hand, beneath the Prime is the Elemental Tempest, within which can be found the Abyss wherein demons and perhaps even Tharizdun are contained.

What is interesting most to me in this is that the Elemental Tempest reminds me rather strongly of the 2e Ethereal - the plane between the Prime and the Elemental Planes. I think that perhaps the elements will - instead of distinct planes - be numerous domain-like pockets or demi-planes within the stated Elemental Tempest. Some may be of a single element, while others may be of several elements. It is an interesting design decision. So those that prefer the elemental planes as they currently are will still have (demi-?) planes within the Elemental Tempest that are of a single element - if that is where they wish to adventure, while others will have elemental (demi-?) planes of multiple elements - perhaps even all of them. The latter result may even seem at first glance by visitors to be odd other Primes. Perhaps Primes 'grow' from such seed-planes where all the elements have by chance come together in the Elemental Tempest.

I also find it interesting that Devils are evil-tainted Celestials, while Demons are evil-tainted Elementals. That makes for a rather profound difference, actually. I wonder where it will eventually lead . . . .

The fact that Demons are former elementals - and as such care little about gaining / converting souls (and, in fact, likely seek the destruction of souls, meaning that any souls drawn towards the Abyss are unlikely to - or at least rarely - become demons) also brings about some rather notable (perhaps even extreme) differences and changes to the perception, arrangement, and use of the Abyss in the cosmology.

In addition to the divine realms pocketed like (demi-?)planes amongst the astral sea, I wonder what other planes may exist there. I also wonder what other (demi-?)planes may exist in the Elemental Tempest.


Of course, all this does ring the death knell of the Great Wheel, as it seems that it has finally, completely, been dropped from consideration. Hmm, I wonder if a Rule of Three might still exist. If so, perhaps in addition to the Astral Sea above and the Elemental Tempest below, there will be another plane beside the Prime (Shadow?).


I wonder if - like the succubus - all the schemer type demons might be moved over into the devil camp? Grazzt may end up being a devil in the next edition, for example.

 

[A'koss]

It's interesting, I do like what they're trying to achieve with creating greater distinction between the fiend camps, but I'll tell you right now it's not going to get me to change my campaign's cosmology.