D&D 4E 4E: DM-proofing the game

How many "horrible DM stories" have we all heard around the internet? A little DM-proofing seems like a good thing to me. Good DMs can and will house-rule around anything that gets in the way, while bad/rookie DMs will have a structure that pushes them towards being good DMs. All to the good, it sounds like.
 

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Vayden said:
How many "horrible DM stories" have we all heard around the internet? A little DM-proofing seems like a good thing to me. Good DMs can and will house-rule around anything that gets in the way, while bad/rookie DMs will have a structure that pushes them towards being good DMs. All to the good, it sounds like.

The problem is that many bad DMs are bad because of their horrible houserules and that is something you simply can't prevent.
 

I don´t think that DM is taken his freedom.

I perceive it just as the opposite:
the DM is once again expicitely allowed to make up monsters and NSCs, whithut referrng to many books and rules.

Most of the things you mentioned have either existed already (explicitely or implicitely) or should be taken as guidelines (IIRC it was stated that quest cards were optional) for new (and sometimes old DMs) to learn how to run a good game/run a better game.

Some arbitrary things of 3.x:
You could always wear only 2 rings, no matter how many fingers you have. Rings required caster Level 12+. Who crafted all those rings of protection +1, when they were able to produce +3 rings?

We don´t know what rings actually do, so maybe this restriction can easily be ignored or rather should not
 

Vayden - I agree with you. ((Obviously))

I've never really understood the compulsion that some people seem to have to make entering the game more difficult. I want as many DM's out there as humanly possible. What is the comment about 3e? The game everyone wants to play but no one wants to DM? Something like that.

If they lower the bar for running games - maybe not great games, but, then again, anyone who claims that they ran great games as a new DM is lying anyway - I'm 100% behind it.

Instead of just shoving the books into people's hands and letting everyone stumble around in the dark, why not disseminate some of the accumulated knowledge in the core books and core rules?
 

Reynard said:
Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is deopendent entirely on playstyle, preference and expectations. I consider it a bad thing -- I think the game should give the DM both more powers and more responsibilites, going "backwards" away from 3E's highly structured ruleset toward earlier editions' more open rulesset.
And while I unserstand your position, I see this as all 'good things'.

The less time I must spend fiddling with purely mechanistic elements, the more time I can spend on planning the *fun* stuff.
 

Hussar said:
I cannot believe that anyone would actually defend the idea that you MUST have certain classes in order for the group to function.

Which makes me wonder if you've ever played this game.

I get soundly rebuked when I mention that we don't use 'skillmonkeys' or 'trapfinders' in our games, because nobody I game with wants to play them. When I mention that I've played in a game with no clerics (or mages, actually), just a team of warrior types who made use of a Ranger with a Wand of Cure Lt Wounds for the emergency healing, I also got crapped all over by multiple posters over on the WotC boards, who insisted that I 'playing the game wrong' and 'deliberately gimping myself' and 'if you want to not have fun, go ahead.'

Not only is it believable that people would defend the idea that you *must* have certain classes, it's a de facto assumption. Every Origins or GenCon I go to, the people at the table bargain over who has to 'play the Cleric,' and the RPGA *even has a system for that,* where a player can 'take one for the team' and use one of the pregenerated Fastplay Characters and apply the adventure credit to the character you wanted to play, if the group needs you to play a healer instead of your RPGA character!

It's a base assumption of the game, so much that their are official rulings to accomodate it!

At this point, I stop reading your post. You've gone off the deep end here in your attempts to rebut the OP (whom I don't completely agree with either, but he at least seems to be familiar with how the game is played).
 


I have to disagree.

First of all, the "D&D is taking power away from the DM!" line is an old one. I usually hear it from a few 2e aficionados in my area, who are convinced that things like standardized DCs for skill checks like "Climb" is something that sucks the "creativity" out of the game. I have to disagree with the entire premise. While in a strict sense one could argue that any rule at all reduces the power of the DM by restricting him from making rules up, I think that's a bit facile. Sure, we could argue that giving goblins a penalty when fighting in sunlight has "taken away" the DM's power to not give goblins a penalty while fighting in sunlight, but is that really a worthwhile position?

I'd argue that the only rules which meaningfully restrict DM freedom are rules which 1) affect material aspects of the DM's role in the game, like storyline creation or setting design, and 2) are deeply coded into the game in such a way that homebrewing them out is difficult.

So, take our goblins who are penalized in the sunlight. This barely affects a DM's ability to narrate the game, and it is easy to ignore. It is therefore not a meaningful restriction on DM freedom.

Or take my friend who thinks that the skill system is a problem. Standardized climb DCs? They don't affect the storyline much at all, nor do they affect any other traditional DM area of the game. They do affect the player aspect, by codifying the chances of success on a type of task, and creating predictability in the game world. They ARE difficult to remove from the game though, as doing so involves restricting a character's class abilities- his skill points. I'd go with this not being a meaningful restriction on DM freedom. While a DM intending to write a plotline involving a brick wall that cannot be climbed is stymied by the presence of a skilled rogue with a maxed climb skill and good climbing equipment, I, personally, feel that a desire to screw such a character out of being able to climb a brick wall is, by definition, poor DMing practice, and a DM overstepping his or her bounds.

For an example of something that I think IS a meaningful restriction on DM freedom, look at assumed magical weapons and abilities by level. Whether the characters find magical weapons, or whether they fight with whatever is on hand, is a big part of a setting's style. It is also difficult to remove. First, removing it affects the balance between PCs and monsters in a way that is not automatically easy to accommodate (although it looks to be easier than previous editions). Second, if the game is set so that at a certain point invisible attackers, or flying attackers, become more common, abilities that let a character see invisibility or fly will become more necessary. A skilled DM can work around their absence, but it isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.

Get the idea?

As for the items you mention.

Level/Tier Based Encounter Design. When you say that the goal is to "reduce" DM influence over the game, I am uncertain from what starting point you mean for the reduction to progress. After all, these things are present in detail in 3e. But, lets apply my criteria. Does this affect storyline? Yes. What monsters you meet and fight is a big part of the storyline, and this rule does tell you that certain monsters are inappropriate enemies for certain parties. Now, whether that's a big deal is an open question- the whole idea is that the reason that certain monsters are inappropriate encounters is because they'll kill the party very quickly. But it is still a restriction. So is it a difficult restriction to ignore? Not really. If your goal is an unbalanced encounter, it shouldn't take more than a moment to create one. The fact that the rulebook informs the DM that certain encounters are likely to kill their characters isn't going to stop the DM from doing it if that's what the DM wants to do.

Quests. This is one of the recurring debates on the EN World forum that infuriates me, because it seems as if those freaking out about quest cards and quests are being willfully obstreperous. Quest cards are just a variant on the age old system of having one player keep notes, and as for how the game will encourage or require quests, it is beyond me. The absolute best I can come up with to justify my debate opponent's side in this fight is the possibility that the game will recommend coming up with goals, assigning them XP values, and awarding those values upon completion of the goals. If this is the case, it will be just as restrictive to DMs as was previous advice on assigning XP values- namely, not very restrictive at all, with lots of little notes about adjusting things to fit your judgment. It seems the greatest likelihood, though, that this entire issue is a mere bugaboo of the imagination. As I cannot analyze the possibility of a reduction in DM control of the game as a result of an inchoate wraith of an idea, I must pass this point by. If or when someone other than me decides to develop this fear into an actual idea, I will consider it.

Roles: I don't understand how this is expected to reduce DM control. I understand what you appear to be saying, that a party covering all the roles is unlikely in the regular course of adventuring to encounter fights in which they are simply unequipped to compete, but I don't see how that is relevant to DM control at all. Certainly, a well balanced party is indeed well balanced. What conclusion does that yield? That a DM will have a harder time creating unbalanced encounters if the party is well prepared? That's treacherous reasoning. It suggests that any PC strength is a restriction on the DMs power to capitalize on that PC's weakness. True in a strict sense, but meaningful? I'm not so sure. Of course, if this is not your intended point I apologize, but I cannot tell your intended point so I am trying to surmise.

Rings: Yes, a rule that rings cannot be used beneath certain levels restricts the DM's ability to create plotlines involving rings below certain levels. No, this is not hard to remove. This is a "goblin light blindness" situation at best. Further, I don't think this was done as a means if managing character power and stopping monte haul campaigns from breaking the game. Monte haul campaigns will proceed just fine without the availability of rings below certain levels. I think this was done as part of a system of making rings more distinct from other magical items. There is no way to know for certain, but my interpretation is logically consistent and fits the available data. Assuming that this was done to stop monte haul campaigns does not fit the available data, as no restrictions on other high level items exists.
 

If you remove some of the more negatively slanted parts of the original post, based on straight facts I don't think Reynard is totally off base, but I see things about 4e in a slightly different way. Where Reynard sees "DM-proofing" I see providing a stronger set of consistent rules for new DMs to use. I think the designers understand that experienced DMs will take the rules apart, tinker with them and reassemble them in their own way that will function fine. New DMs trying this are much more likely to break the game. By providing stronger rules with less space for DM Fiat, games are much more likely to run well under an inexperienced DM.

I predict one of the things we see in future DMGs will be more information on how to customize the game for an individual group's style.
 

Hussar said:
You assumption is flawed. Power in an RPG is not a zero sum game. Giving power to the players does not take it away from the DM. OTOH, we have 20 years of evidence that assuming that DM's are all capable of crafting rules is flawed. Far and away too many problems have resulted from poor game design and leaving decisions in the hands of the DM.

Actually, it does, at least in the context of the assumed social contract when sitting down at the table. That assumed contract is written in the rules of the game and is modified by clear communication of changes from the rules. Players have every right to be upset at a 3.x DM that consistenly ignores the stated CR and wealth-by-level (for example) guidelines without communicating that to the players and reaching an agreement with the players on the subject. Generally speaking, that which isn't explicitely agreed upon to deviat from the core rules of the game is implicitly agreed upon to adhere to the core rules of the game. Therefore, the more specifc the rules are and the more specific situations they cover is a transference of power -- perhaps not to the players, but to the rules in the benefit of the player and detriment of the DM (who still assumes the vast majority of responsibility for the game, but now has fewer tools with which to achieve meet that responsibilty).
 

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