4E DM's Surprised By Players?

[Mallus]

I think that instead of Character Optimization threads, it is likely that we shall (or maybe should) see Tactics Optimization threads. It is the new way of "winning".

You mean winning because of how you actually play the game? That's just... shocking.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Specifically, that battle is more about thinking than twinking.

I wonder how popular this more tactical feel will be? I personally like it.

I think anyone less interested in combat or using a battlemat and miniature representations (be it actually minis or token) will not be able to appreciate it.

Anyone that likes this stuff wlll probable like the change, too. After all, all the expensive toys actually are useful this way!


People that loved digesting the rule books and reading forums to optimize their characters might find themselves with a lot of free time, which can be good or bad. Or they'll invest in their private battle mats and try to come up with possible encounters to optimize stragegy? (Sounds unlikely...)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I actually first saw this in 3.5E, not in 4E, oddly enough.

It was when we started more carefully tracking the position of the characters, to deal with AoOs and so on. Then we saw something very similar - the "watcher-ish" player suddenly became very tactically adept and made very good use of their character, avoided and created opportunities for AoOs and did a good job generally, where the expert builder's character sort of blundered into the enemy and flailed at them.

However, as Mustrum says, I think this will actually make some players sad. One of my players is a long-time "power-gamer". He loves power-gaming dearly. He plays well, he's polite, he's funny, he RPs more than some of the others and advances the plot, but it's clear he gets big thrills from super-optimized characters and getting "phat l3wt". 3.5E was thus more or less perfect for him (even though his characters actually rarely stole the spotlight). He actually didn't get to play in the adventures I ran recently, but I suspect he'll be slightly LESS engaged than before, so this does cut both ways.

In 4E, though, I was PAINFULLY reminded of the tactical expertise of my brother. He DM'd 3.XE, so I'd forgotten about it. In 2E had frequently came up with terrifying plans or brilliant uses for spells. In 4E he played very smart and very tactical and spotted ALL SORTS of flaws in my plans, in and out of combat.

Overall? Seems like an improvement, but I hope there's enough chargen crunch to engage my power-gamer.

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Could someone post some specific examples? I've been hearing a lot about how 4e is more about tactics and teamwork (and this seems to be the case). I've played very little so far, however, so I haven't quite got my head around the change yet.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I was surprised by how much a couple of my players actually latched on to the skill challenge rules as a guideline for RPing. In our first session, it turned our weakest RPer into our strongest one. It's kinda hard to explain...I think the skill challenges gave her some guidance as far as how her character would act in some way.

 

[Scribble]

Could someone post some specific examples? I've been hearing a lot about how 4e is more about tactics and teamwork (and this seems to be the case). I've played very little so far, however, so I haven't quite got my head around the change yet.

Well for example:

Ordinarily shift costs a move action. So you can shift and attack or move and attack, but you can't do all three. (action points aside.)

Kobolds have an ability that let's them shift as a minor action. So they can move attack and shift all in the same turn. This makes them a bit hard to pin down at times.

If you can't pin someone down, then it makes the "striker's" job harder to do...

Enter the fighter. He has a marking power, that while it doesn't stop people from moving, it causes the movement to trigger an OA, making movement a less then optimal choice.

So, fighter pins the little kobold down, rogue gets into flanking position for more damage.

or, maybe the wizard has a power that can slide an opponent a few squares... Slide that opponent in between two "strikers..." Ouch.

 

[billd91]

I actually first saw this in 3.5E, not in 4E, oddly enough.

I saw it in 3.0, to a certain degree as well, but it had less to do with tactics and more to do with intimidating rules mastery. The wife of one long-time player decided that with the appearance of 3.0, the time was ripe for her to pick up the dice and dive in. Until that point, she felt kind of intimidated/hedged out by us long-timers who knew the rules backward and forward. With 3.0, and all of us having to learn the new edition, the playing field was leveled and it brought her active participation out.

Now she runs 2 campaigns.

So while the relative straight-forwardness of beginning powers may be a factor, it also might be that the buildmonkeys are a bit wrong-footed having to master the build strategies of the new edition.

In any event, hopefully the increase in participation is permanent. The wallflowers sometimes just need the opportunity to truly feel an equal at the table.

 

[Agamon]

Yep, personally I'd choose tactics over twinking any day. I play a lot of board games, and I prefer games where I have a lot of different viable options to win over ones where I need to figure out the best trick to win.

 

[Wik]

I think Bill has hit the right of it. That would be a good explanation for why MY watcher is coming out of the woodwork.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I think Bill has hit the right of it. That would be a good explanation for why MY watcher is coming out of the woodwork.

Hehe, in our group, our watcher (i.e. my SO) is coming out as well and has incredible fun with her wizard, blasting minions with scorching bursts and thunderwaves.

4E: THE game for watchers and new DMs. Seemingly, very accessible - still positively surprised about that.

Cheers, LT.