D&D 4E 4E Dragons - Where's the beef?

[jorrit]

A 4 PC level 3 party against a young green dragon level 5 solo is an n+3 encounter. This is considered hard. So by definition, a TPK is a likely outcome.

Does your program heal unconscious PCs, have PCs stay out of range of area attacks, have a defender try to hold down the dragon while the other PCs either pot shot it or aid the defender in some way, allow the PCs to use Daily items, etc.?

Healing powers are supported. The cleric can do two healing words in an encounter and will use those to heal unconscious allies. They also know how to use Second Wind (but that's only when they are not unconscious of course).

The program is only an approximation and does not keep track of position. The way it works is that the area attacks pick a random number of opponents in the blast. You shouldn't see those percentages are absolute numbers. I'm making several assumptions in my program. I'm using my program mostly to have a rough idea of the damage throughput of players against an encounter and also to compare various options. For example, I have used this program to see what the effect is on the average number of rounds needed to complete the encounter if you do various tricks like for example: half the HP of monsters but double their damage.

The PCs can use at-will, encounter, and daily powers. They currently don't have any magic items yet but the program supports them.

Edit: forgot to add that Combat Challenge also works (with marking and related).

One has to take such results with a grain of salt unless the program is designed to seriously emulate player equipment, tactics, and racial abilities.

This is not exact science Just some approximations.

I have noticed that during the beginning of a campaign when the players are not as familiar with their powers and the abilities of their fellow PCs, that they are merely a set of numbers on the character sheets. Everyone more or less does their own thing. As they get experienced with each other, there is a teamwork that is greater than the sum of the parts where PC tactics start getting seriously stronger. I suspect that your program does not take this into account and just compares damage and conditions.

Yes, the program just picks whatever it thinks is the best power for the moment and that's something that's just calculated based on a subjective value that I gave to the powers and the expected average damage.

Greetings,

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Healing powers are supported. The cleric can do two healing words in an encounter and will use those to heal unconscious allies. They also know how to use Second Wind (but that's only when they are not unconscious of course).

The program is only an approximation and does not keep track of position. The way it works is that the area attacks pick a random number of opponents in the blast. You shouldn't see those percentages are absolute numbers. I'm making several assumptions in my program. I'm using my program mostly to have a rough idea of the damage throughput of players against an encounter and also to compare various options. For example, I have used this program to see what the effect is on the average number of rounds needed to complete the encounter if you do various tricks like for example: half the HP of monsters but double their damage.

The PCs can use at-will, encounter, and daily powers. They currently don't have any magic items yet but the program supports them.

Edit: forgot to add that Combat Challenge also works (with marking and related).

This is not exact science Just some approximations.

Yes, the program just picks whatever it thinks is the best power for the moment and that's something that's just calculated based on a subjective value that I gave to the powers and the expected average damage.

Greetings,

So, when do you gonna offer this app for download on EN World?

Or, if trademark/copyright/GSL forbids this, sell it to WotC?

 

[jorrit]

So, when do you gonna offer this app for download on EN World?

Or, if trademark/copyright/GSL forbids this, sell it to WotC?

If you're interested in the source I can always provide it but you have to keep in mind that the program is about as user-unfriendly as it could be. To setup the players and opponents you have to use python code. It doesn't read any data files.

Greetings,

 

[SlyFlourish]

Like the original post, I've noticed a distinct lack of damage from creatures as the levels go up. This started when I first saw the 4e Pit Fiend and has continued until now. I don't know if it's the boost at Paragon, but I simply can't drop any players now with encounters equal to or up to three levels above.

Part of that is my distinct lack of tactics. My whole group are tactical players while I just throw guys at them. Part of it, however, is that monster damage just doesn't seem to scale as well as the PCs ability to handle it. Looking at the gray dragons in the Draconomicon, the difference in breath damage between a level 12 and a level 18 dragon is one point. One point!

Given how rare breath weapons are, i wouldn't be upset at all if they did 50 percent damage in a good strong hit. It wouldn't kill a party, but it would sure show them they've been hit.

It's ironic to me that hazards do far more damage than dragon breath.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Like the original post, I've noticed a distinct lack of damage from creatures as the levels go up. This started when I first saw the 4e Pit Fiend and has continued until now. I don't know if it's the boost at Paragon, but I simply can't drop any players now with encounters equal to or up to three levels above.

Part of that is my distinct lack of tactics. My whole group are tactical players while I just throw guys at them. Part of it, however, is that monster damage just doesn't seem to scale as well as the PCs ability to handle it. Looking at the gray dragons in the Draconomicon, the difference in breath damage between a level 12 and a level 18 dragon is one point. One point!

Given how rare breath weapons are, i wouldn't be upset at all if they did 50 percent damage in a good strong hit. It wouldn't kill a party, but it would sure show them they've been hit.

It's ironic to me that hazards do far more damage than dragon breath.

The problem with this (breathe weapons doing damage approximate to a character's bloodied value) would be that with a lucky recharge roll the dragon could breathe two rounds in a row and it would be over for anyone who didn't receive healing interim. Heck, in the worst case scenario a dragon could breathe, get bloodied on the next character's turn and breathe again before anyone has had a chance to heal. Sounds like a TPK waiting to happen.

4e's design concept largely eliminates the "rocket tag" style of combat that (love it or hate it) was often prevalent in 3.x. Admittedly, they may have gone a tad too far with it, but so far my group is loving the new feel (we've always detested rocket tag).

I threw a solo Bulette (templated) against them and it was quite a fight! Admittedly, the terrain favored the creature somewhat (they were fighting atop a crumbling ledge surrounding a boiling lake and the bulette repeatedly tunneled through the wall, collapsing it in areas and cutting characters off from their allies) but the template proved almost useless (I used the Ranger template and made a poor choice of powers). Nonetheless, I nearly killed the barbarian and had the fighter on the ropes before they were finally able to put it down (the other two were injured as well).

If you want to run a Solo solo, I recommend giving it home-ground advantage (or at least favorable terrain) that it can exploit. If you really don't like to use tactics and just want to "slug it out" with the party, try using a Brute Solo above the party's level. The increased level makes up for the Brute's inherent lack of accuracy plus Brutes hit unusually hard, which sounds like what you're looking for.

 

[Feylock]

It's in the action point.

If I'm an adult red dragon wanting to take down a 3rd level fighter with around 47 HP's, I use Double Attack, action point, Double Attack. That's 8d8+28 damage, average rolls should do the trick.
.

But since the fighter is battlerager he will not feel a scratch

 

[Skyscraper]

My impression is that many players are slaves to numbers. If the numbers are written down as XYZ in the book, then that creature does XYZ all the time!

Well, 4E doesn't work that way. If it's not obvious enough from experience, the designers specifically say so in the book: stay within a determined level differential.

The designers have designed a rule for monsters which are much weaker than the PCs, and that's the minion rule. (They discussed that lengthily before 4E came out, when they were adressing mass combats in 3E and saying that level 1 monsters vs, say, level 12 PCs was dumb in that only natural 20s were hits, but they all were and all crit threats on top of that.) So, minions for weak monsters. But what about monsters that are much stronger? Well, there is the solo rule. But what about monsters that are way, way too strong? Well, the designers didn't do any rule for that because, if as a DM you're inclined to pit the PCs against an overpowering monster, you don't need any book:

Player: "I attack. I rolled 20. I have 31 with my bonuses".
DM: "You miss. The dragon eats you."

Why have rules? The PCs won't hit anyway, and the opponent will kill them anyway. What is the purpose of the numbers? (I.e. my "slaves to numbers" comment.)

3E is an "absolute" system. If a creature deals 24d10 damage on a breath weapon, it does so against level 3 PCs and against level 15 PCs.

4E is a "relative" system. If a creature deals 3d8+3 damage on a breath weapon, it does so against PCs of level between, say, N+3 and N-6. For PCs that are way under the monster level, the numbers don't fit. You can use'em if you want; but that doesn't do the monster justice. Is the monster still overpowering? Of course. But the numbers are still not designed for such a level differential.

People here are arguing whether an adult red dragon should or shouldn't kill a level 3 party with a single breath weapon. This is entirely beside the point. This is a decision for the DM to make, not the books. Whatever opponent you pit your PCs against as DM, you are the one choosing that opponent anyway (don't tell me it's not you, it's the random encounter table...). If you want a dragon that can kill in a single breath, by all means do it! If you choose a level 15 solo against a level 3 party, who cares what the book says about the level 15 solo? What is the purpose of this monster in your game? It's obviously either to kill the party, show them humility in defeat, force them to flee, force them to surrender, or something similar. It doesn't matter. The gist of the situation is that the monster is overpowering for level 3 PCs. Get him to act that way. If you want the dragon to slowly kill them over 4-5 rounds with weak breath weapons, so be it. If you want them to fry on the first round, just do it. Why is it that you need the book to confirm whether you can or not? I simply don't get it. If the adult dragon's breath weapon is not strong enough for you but you can't imagine tweaking the numbers since you absolutely want to follow the book, then choose another monster, you're the DM! Choose a level 30 solo, choose Orcus, I dunno, anything. The point being, wanting to stick to the numbers in the book makes no sense to me:

You're choosing the monster, why not choose it's stats?

Some posters say here that they need templates to add to monsters, they need this or that rule to create a level 15 solo monster that will TPK a party? Slaves to numbers, I say! Be free of your shackles: design your own monsters! Heck, it's even fun doing it now! And if you want an overpowering monster, design it as such!

Sky

 

[Henry]

In my experience, it never worked that the fighter was scared of the dragon in 3E, unless the dragon was flying around and hit-and-running away from a fighter that had very little magic. In most 3E games I've played or run, the fighter-type would bust out the fly potion, tackle the dragon with either his shield of elemental immunity or the cleric casting some energy resistance-type spells on him, and the warrior would whip the dragon with a heavily-magicked weapon.

Or, the wizard would avasculate, squamous pulse, spell-focus-hold monster, or some other spell from the spell Compendium, and take half or all the fight out of the dragon.

..Or the dragon would get the drop on the party and kill one guy before being killed.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point being, wanting to stick to the numbers in the book makes no sense to me:

You're choosing the monster, why not choose it's stats?

Some posters say here that they need templates to add to monsters, they need this or that rule to create a level 15 solo monster that will TPK a party? Slaves to numbers, I say! Be free of your shackles: design your own monsters! Heck, it's even fun doing it now! And if you want an overpowering monster, design it as such!

You must have a lot of free time on your hands.

For those of us who do not have a lot of free time, DND is supposed to be designed that we can just grab monsters out of the MM and use them straight up.

In fact, there were more DM friendly changes to 4E with which to make creating encounters easier and faster than there were ones for players. That's a major selling point of 4E for WotC.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But since the fighter is battlerager he will not feel a scratch

I assume that was sarcasm.

The reality is that a level 3 battlerager with max Con (plus the vigor feat) is taking 6 damage off each melee hit (after the first), and if he has a more normal Con (so that he can actually hit things) it's 3 or 4. He'll feel it all right. If he's lucky, his ablative hps might keep him standing until the second round (at which point the dragon spends it's second action point and the battlerager is guaranteed dead).