4E Gods - Where's the crunch?
- Thread starter CleverNickName
- Start date
Jack99
Adventurer
CleverNickName said:
So you are really trying to get on board with the new edition? By giving away your books?
Also, considering the way you trash 4e in your personal blog, I have my doubts about your intentions towards getting on board. Of course, you are entitled to prefer 3.5 or whatnot, but at least be honest about it.
Voadam
Legend
I have to go with 2e specialty priests over 3e clerics for mechanical differentiation.
Favored weapon meant a free prechosen weapon proficiency if you had the war domain and it was the shape and damage stats for spiritual weapon. Not a big impact IMO.
Domains were OK but not close to the variety of priest powers found in Legends and Lore or Forgotten Realms Adventures or Powers and Pantheons or Faiths and Avatars or Demihuman Deities IMO.
That said 4e is more than a little lacking in god stuff. Complete Description of gods in a paragraph or two and that's it with "for the DM to fill in the blanks". I couldn't even tell you what the new underdark evil torture god looks like except that he is said to burrow up and drag off those who take his name in vain.
Some call this a feature "You get to make it up yourself!".
Others call this a bug "I have to make this up myself?"
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I largely agree, and if you're more interested in helpful suggestions than in people telling you that you're wrong to feel that way, I might be able to help.
Off the top of my head, the first thing you could do is swap a few skills and features around. Allow and mandate training in one skill appropriate to the diety (so Religion + Deity Skill + 2 other Cleric Skills), such as Acrobatics for Avandra, or Arcana for Corellon (most of these should be pretty self-explanitory).
This means that even a cleric can sneak if they are the cleric of a sneaky god, which only makes sense. It's not tremendously unbalancing, since you don't really get a whole lot of extra things to do with those skills (you can't sneak attack from hiding, even if you can hide), but it gives you something distinct that you can do.
You might allow Channel Divinity to mimic one of the at-will abilities of another class, too. Say you're a cleric of Kord, so instead of "Divine Fortune" you take "Divine Might." This has an effect exactly the same as Tide of Iron from the Fighter list, only it's an encounter power instead of an at-will power. Again, it makes your cleric very distinct, without stepping on too many toes.
Third, you may consider giving a bit of "extra incentive" to things that a cleric of Deity X are likely to do. For instance, you could allow clerics of Moradin to take Dwarf racial feats. You could let clerics of Bahamut who multiclass into Paladin gain a kicker for it (maybe they can gain the Channel Divnity feat in place of a class feature, maybe just give them a +2 bonus with a certain class feature). Clerics who pick up proficiency in a favored weapon might gain an extra +1 proficiency bonus, or they might be able to do radiant damage once per encounter with that favored weapon.
Alternately, you could go the other way around. A fighter who picks up cleric levels might automatically gain the Channel Divnity for Kord. You might also consider modeling it off of warlock paths -- Deity Paths!
All of those are pretty "quick and dirty" solutions. Something more in-deapth would mean, say, creating paragon paths or alternate class powers at several (if not all) levels that evoke more specific deities in the way that warlocks can evoke specific paths.
None of this should be too tremendously burdensome in isolation, but there are two things you're going to want to watch out for.
The first is Niche Protection. 4e has a very precarious balance between the four roles. There is room for flexibility, but it's important that your cleric decide exactly what role he fills. Does he want to be mostly a leader with some tricksy rogue elements? Does he want to be mostly a tricksy rogue who can inspire others to be tricksy? You can't have it both ways in 4e, so you've gotta do one or the other.
The second is Accidental Suck. This is related to the above problem. You don't want to end up with a cleric who can't heal because he's traded out all his healing powers for fighter powers, but he can't fight that well, either, so what, exactly, are all those fighter powers for?
Clerics in 3e don't really suffer from the latter problem because they pile onto the first problem pretty avidly -- they can fill any role, and they won't suck at any of them (a bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit
). I think getting rid of that problem is part of what drove clerics in 4e to embrace the "Blast 'em With Light" archetype.
Off the top of my head, the first thing you could do is swap a few skills and features around. Allow and mandate training in one skill appropriate to the diety (so Religion + Deity Skill + 2 other Cleric Skills), such as Acrobatics for Avandra, or Arcana for Corellon (most of these should be pretty self-explanitory).
This means that even a cleric can sneak if they are the cleric of a sneaky god, which only makes sense. It's not tremendously unbalancing, since you don't really get a whole lot of extra things to do with those skills (you can't sneak attack from hiding, even if you can hide), but it gives you something distinct that you can do.
You might allow Channel Divinity to mimic one of the at-will abilities of another class, too. Say you're a cleric of Kord, so instead of "Divine Fortune" you take "Divine Might." This has an effect exactly the same as Tide of Iron from the Fighter list, only it's an encounter power instead of an at-will power. Again, it makes your cleric very distinct, without stepping on too many toes.
Third, you may consider giving a bit of "extra incentive" to things that a cleric of Deity X are likely to do. For instance, you could allow clerics of Moradin to take Dwarf racial feats. You could let clerics of Bahamut who multiclass into Paladin gain a kicker for it (maybe they can gain the Channel Divnity feat in place of a class feature, maybe just give them a +2 bonus with a certain class feature). Clerics who pick up proficiency in a favored weapon might gain an extra +1 proficiency bonus, or they might be able to do radiant damage once per encounter with that favored weapon.
Alternately, you could go the other way around. A fighter who picks up cleric levels might automatically gain the Channel Divnity for Kord. You might also consider modeling it off of warlock paths -- Deity Paths!
All of those are pretty "quick and dirty" solutions. Something more in-deapth would mean, say, creating paragon paths or alternate class powers at several (if not all) levels that evoke more specific deities in the way that warlocks can evoke specific paths.
None of this should be too tremendously burdensome in isolation, but there are two things you're going to want to watch out for.
The first is Niche Protection. 4e has a very precarious balance between the four roles. There is room for flexibility, but it's important that your cleric decide exactly what role he fills. Does he want to be mostly a leader with some tricksy rogue elements? Does he want to be mostly a tricksy rogue who can inspire others to be tricksy? You can't have it both ways in 4e, so you've gotta do one or the other.
The second is Accidental Suck. This is related to the above problem. You don't want to end up with a cleric who can't heal because he's traded out all his healing powers for fighter powers, but he can't fight that well, either, so what, exactly, are all those fighter powers for?
Clerics in 3e don't really suffer from the latter problem because they pile onto the first problem pretty avidly -- they can fill any role, and they won't suck at any of them (a bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit
). I think getting rid of that problem is part of what drove clerics in 4e to embrace the "Blast 'em With Light" archetype.
Gothmog
First Post
I miss spheres too. I didn't ever care for domains- two spells per level different from any other cleric made all clerics homogenous in 3.x
This is one of the areas of 4e that does bug me- the loss of ways to distinguish clerics of different religions. The channeling feats are a decent start, but I want more! I've been playing a paladin of the Raven Queen, and Raven Queen's Blessing is a damn nice power. I'm working on writing up some homebrew powers and rituals for each diety in my game, but that might take a while.
This is one of the areas of 4e that does bug me- the loss of ways to distinguish clerics of different religions. The channeling feats are a decent start, but I want more! I've been playing a paladin of the Raven Queen, and Raven Queen's Blessing is a damn nice power. I'm working on writing up some homebrew powers and rituals for each diety in my game, but that might take a while.
Nowadays, different gods are separated by Channel Divinity feats. There are also hints that more of these will be forthcoming, or more feats related to deity choice. You can't have more or the people who hated the Golden Wyvern Adept will stab you to death in your sleep for inappropriately mixing fluff and crunch.
As for whether the cleric feels cleric-y, I'm playing one and I feel awfully cleric-y. I'm using a wisdom cleric (low strength), and I can't even sneeze without granting bonuses to an ally.
As for whether the cleric feels cleric-y, I'm playing one and I feel awfully cleric-y. I'm using a wisdom cleric (low strength), and I can't even sneeze without granting bonuses to an ally.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Cadfan said:
I think part of the OP's point is that granting bonuses isn't what "feels" cleric-y to him. What feels cleric-y is having powers that are exampled by your specific deity. Outside of a single feat, the 4e cleric has a whole lotta jack squat to do that with. It could use a little...heck, a LOT...more distinguishing features.
"I worship the Goddess of Death and I give you bonuses!"
"I worship the God of Life and I give you bonuses!"
"I worship the God of Tyranny and I give you bonuses!"
How are you different? Well, one or two of you might have a feat that does something different once per encounter.
FAIL.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing (He/They)
@ Hussar: A while ago, there was a thread about bringing Spheres of Influence into 3rd Edition as deities. I can't remember who wrote it, but it looked pretty solid.
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@ Plane Sailing: true, the "three commandments" are great plot hooks and seeds for character development, but that seems like the sort of thing that would be very specific to a campaign. I like world-building, and fluff usually gets in the way of that.
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@ Jack99: Sorry if I have caused offense. If you would like to discuss the opinions expressed on my personal blog, you are always welcome to discuss it with me there, not in this forum. It's probably a better place to discuss my sincerity and choice of birthday gifts, as well.
The reason I started this thread after having given my books away is, I am still working on a pantheon for a Fire Islands campaign. While I won't be playing 4E, I know a lot of people will be...I would like to make a product that everyone can enjoy.
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@ Kamakazi Midget: Man, this is awesome stuff! Thank you for the feedback (and for "accidental suck," which made me laugh out loud.)
The more I think about it, the more I think I should put my Fire Islands stuff into the ENWiki, and release it to the public to let it grow.
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@ Plane Sailing: true, the "three commandments" are great plot hooks and seeds for character development, but that seems like the sort of thing that would be very specific to a campaign. I like world-building, and fluff usually gets in the way of that.
-----
@ Jack99: Sorry if I have caused offense. If you would like to discuss the opinions expressed on my personal blog, you are always welcome to discuss it with me there, not in this forum. It's probably a better place to discuss my sincerity and choice of birthday gifts, as well.
The reason I started this thread after having given my books away is, I am still working on a pantheon for a Fire Islands campaign. While I won't be playing 4E, I know a lot of people will be...I would like to make a product that everyone can enjoy.
-----
@ Kamakazi Midget: Man, this is awesome stuff! Thank you for the feedback (and for "accidental suck," which made me laugh out loud.)
The more I think about it, the more I think I should put my Fire Islands stuff into the ENWiki, and release it to the public to let it grow.
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el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
With the caveat that I will not get a chance to actually play 4E until this coming Saturday, so far from reading/discussion on of my biggest problems with 4E generally speaking is lack of differentiation - but I am a sub-system kind of guy. . . I don't like streamlining for the sake of streamlining.
EATherrian
First Post
I don't know if this is the right thread but it seems to fit here. Has anyone with a home brew world made up new feats for their deities or just copy and paste. I'm thinking of doing the former, but there is very little guidance on how to do this.
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