D&D 4E 4E had better have fewer skills & feats

[Psychic Warrior]

Well, you are using terms that don't exist in the game by saying the skill categories. Craft and the like are skills that represent a category of skill so that is why I went with those skills. It was the only thing that made sense.

Fine, replace category with 'entry'. Or however else you want to call something on the skill list.

Open lock though is not a sub set of disable device. There are no sub set skills. Each has its use and they do not overlap. Use rope is actaully not narrowly defined, it covers everything one could use a rope for.

But I contend that Open lock does overlap with Disable Device. You are disabling the locking mechanism (and causing it to cease locking). Simple, no?

Use(less) Rope I haven't melded into another skill (yet) as I am torn between Slieght of Hand and Climb - I have seen reasonable arguements for both. No danger of messing up skill point allotments as no one i have ever gamed with has taken Use Rope (this harkens back to 2E days btw).

I've also combined Hide & Move Silently into 'Sneak'.

 

[Crothian]

Fine, replace category with 'entry'. Or however else you want to call something on the skill list.

I just call them skills.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

I just call them skills.

Alrigh'

"Many skills are given an entire skill of their own."

copy-paste

 

[A'koss]

I have to side with Psychic Warrior on this one... I would consider "open locks" to be closely related enough to "disable device" that they should be combined. Use rope should also be folded into something else due to it's limited utility most games. IMO, the skill list on the whole should be combined and pruned into something 2/3 it's current number or less.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I'm sure there's a skill for that already. There's one for craft oak table, craft oak table with finishing, profession oak varnisher, profession specialist oak table crafting carpentry, profession lathe work for table legs (but not chair legs, that goes under KNOWLEDGE craft chair legs profession). Of course, that doesn't include, Craft living room table or for the rope work for the ties that hold it to the floor in case of anti-gravity.

jh

And how many craft skills come up in most games? Making armor, weapons, traps, poison, alchemical items. Did I miss any? Same for knowledge--Arcana, the planes, religion, history?

As for feats, I think it's great to have options. Sure enough, it gets extremely difficult to choose which feats to take and which not to take, but I like having the options. I think that's a part of the fun in 3rd edition.

I read somewhere (maybe SeanKReynolds.com? Some official WotC person, anyway) that the number of feats attained was balanced with the number in the Core Books. A suggested increase was 1 feat per 50 feats to choose from.

 

[Crothian]

And how many craft skills come up in most games? Making armor, weapons, traps, poison, alchemical items. Did I miss any?

In one campaign I play in I've used Craft Stoneworking in each session we have had. Many skills it is really up for the players and DM to make useful instead of waiting for their usefullness to fall in their laps.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

In one campaign I play in I've used Craft Stoneworking in each session we have had. Many skills it is really up for the players and DM to make useful instead of waiting for their usefullness to fall in their laps.

Make useful? Why? If a skill isn't going to find use naturally i fail to see why it should be 'forced'.

Craft - Stoneworking sounds good - very handy for quick bulwarks, castle building. A skill I would expect to see characters take a little later on in their careers (when they want to make a permanent base of operations).

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Craft and knowledge skills being used depend very much on the game. I have called for quite a few, but then I prefer urban campaigns to dungeon crawls. I rather like D20 Modern's skills, disable device include open lock and disarm trap, for example.

OGL Steampunk adds in specializations, to allow subsets of skills to have more ranks.

But other than that I don't feel that the game has too many skills, nor to many feats. But then again I am a long time fan of Call of Cthulhu... There's a game with a lot of skills!

There does need to be a way to limit cleric spells, perhaps adding in 'opposed schools'?

The Auld Grump

 

[drothgery]

I'd have to say I'm in favor of doing some serious consolidating of the skill list, giving all classes (or at least the 2 point/level classes) more skill points, or both. Some skills are just used far more than others (any knowledge skill vs. spot, in most games), and sometimes the way skills are set up means you end up having to make two skill checks for everything. I realize that any skill conoslidation would mean that something different would have to be done for languages, knowledge skills (though I've got an idea about this one, below), craft skills, and perform.

Folding things together might go like so (using the 3.5 list)...

Appraise --> approriate Lore skill (below)
Balance, Tumble --> Acrobatics
Bluff, Intimidate, Disguise, Forgery -> Persuade
Climb, Jump, Swim --> Athletics
Concentration -- eliminate; use a different mechanic for this
Decipher Script --> approriate Lore skill (below)
Diplomacy, Gather Information --> Diplomacy
Disable Device, Open Lock --> Disable Device
Escape Artist, Use Rope, Slight of Hand --> Slight of Hand
Handle Animal, Ride --> Handle Animal
Hide, Move Silently --> Sneak
Knowledge (arcana), Use Magic Device, Spellcraft, Knowlege (psionics), Knowledge (the planes), Psicraft --> Arcane Lore
Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (nature), Survival --> Wilderness Lore
Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion) --> Cultural Lore
Listen, Spot, Sense Motive --> Awareness

 

[Crothian]

Make useful? Why? If a skill isn't going to find use naturally i fail to see why it should be 'forced'.

It isn't being forced when one finds a way to use them with creativity. The DM can easily have simple ways to use different skill in his games. The skills don't have to be the pinicle of the session just a place where it is usefull. Or the player can think of ways to use the skills he has to be useful. Like all abilities players have they only become useful if the player or the DM can think of a way and are willing to think of a way to make them so.