D&D 4E 4E had better have fewer skills & feats

[Crothian]

Blue Rose?

A book by Green Ronin, out in PDF now should be hitting stores as a physical book in about a few weeks. My modest review:

http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2047914

 

[drothgery]

Blue Rose?

New d20-based OGL game from Green Ronin. Out now in PDF; should be out in print Real Soon Now; interesting mechanics, setting not so hot. http://www.blueroserpg.com

 

[Stalker0]

I still don't see it.

The class and cross class skills are right on the character sheet as is the whole skill list so one never needs anything but the character sheet. Figureing skill points is middle school math at worst. Even for a high level characters it never takes me long.

And as DM you rarely need to fully stat out NPCs anyway.

Are you talking about the boxes where you check it if a skill is class or crossclass? Sure you can do that, but again it takes a bit of time, and I still have to look up each class as bring crossclass or class.

You are correct, skills are easy math, I never said otherwise. But it still takes a while. Now if I just put max ranks in all my skills, then sure its not that bad. But I like to make characters with a bit more than that. A little knowledge here, a few ranks in use rope, jump and climb in a pinch, etc. Then you start having to keep track of skill points with each rank you use, and the time it takes to make a character triples.

Or I can be fast and make the same vanilla skills on my npcs all the time...where even my 20th level fighter is just a really good climber and jumper...even though he's been using fly from the party's wizard since level 7.

 

[Crothian]

Are you talking about the boxes where you check it if a skill is class or crossclass? Sure you can do that, but again it takes a bit of time, and I still have to look up each class as bring crossclass or class.

Maybe one minute at most. Three if my pencil breaks and I need to resharpen it.

You are correct, skills are easy math, I never said otherwise. But it still takes a while. Now if I just put max ranks in all my skills, then sure its not that bad. But I like to make characters with a bit more than that. A little knowledge here, a few ranks in use rope, jump and climb in a pinch, etc. Then you start having to keep track of skill points with each rank you use, and the time it takes to make a character triples.

Ya, skills might triple the time it takes to make a character, but we are talking from three minutes to ten. As for keeping track of the skill points I just write down how many I have to spend and count as I spend them.

It just doesn't seem to take us that much time. At higher levels selecting spells for arcane casters, feats for fighter types, and prestige classes for everyone can easily take longer. They might put the total time at like 20 minutes if I need to use multiple books.

 

[fuindordm]

What is a character without skills? Is it really satisfiying to only define your character in terms of combat abilities?

I think skills are an important part of role-playing games. The only thing I could see changinf is define the skills with consitent detail: Some skills are very broad (survival). others very specific (the craft skills, perform).

Broad categories would be nice. Let's say "acrobatics" encompassing tumble, balance; "sports" encompassing climbing, jumping; "sneaking" being hide and move silently, and so on.

I haven't felt the bookkeeping aspect to be a great hassle so far, but I haven't been playing for long.

I agree wholeheartedly. Skills are great because they let you define your character and give them abilities appropriate to their background, but right now there are too many skills and not enough skill points to go around. Grouping skills and paring down the list to a round 20 or so would help a great deal, as well as bumping up the number of skill points per level slightly.

Ben

 

[Psychic Warrior]

, as well as bumping up the number of skill points per level slightly.

Ben

I did that too - bumped every class by 2 points per level. Really helped the fighter, cleric and wizard characters (I still don't understand why wizards get so few skill points - aren't they supposed to be really smart?)

 

[Plane Sailing]

I did that too - bumped every class by 2 points per level. Really helped the fighter, cleric and wizard characters (I still don't understand why wizards get so few skill points - aren't they supposed to be really smart?)

Well, the wizards ARE smart, so their 2+int bonus skills will normally be 5+ by the time that is taken into account.

Now sorcerers... they are a class that would benefit from those extra 2pts per level. Bunch of wasters. After all, they don't have to spend any time studying and STILL only get the base skill point allotment of wizards. They must spend their time carousing or something

Cheers

 

[Quasqueton]

You are correct, skills are easy math, I never said otherwise. But it still takes a while. Now if I just put max ranks in all my skills, then sure its not that bad. But I like to make characters with a bit more than that. A little knowledge here, a few ranks in use rope, jump and climb in a pinch, etc. Then you start having to keep track of skill points with each rank you use, and the time it takes to make a character triples.

LOL! So you are saying, figuring up your skills are easy by default; only gets complicated when you specifically want to make it complicated. Shock of shocks.

I still don't understand why wizards get so few skill points - aren't they supposed to be really smart?)

This has *got* to be sarcasm.

Quasqueton

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Well, the wizards ARE smart, so their 2+int bonus skills will normally be 5+ by the time that is taken into account.

But given that most of their skills are Int based i always felt they should be able to learn more of them (all that time in the library and they never once read a book on Religion? Or Geography?)

Now sorcerers... they are a class that would benefit from those extra 2pts per level. Bunch of wasters. After all, they don't have to spend any time studying and STILL only get the base skill point allotment of wizards. They must spend their time carousing or something

Cheers

I always found it wierd that the Sorcerers didn't have more Charisma based skills. Given their background write ups of being 'outcasts' forced to live by their wits and charm - you'd think they'd be good at it! Maybe they just fireball anyone who gives them lip

 

[Henry]

If a DM is having problems with NPC skill assignments, there are two shortcuts one could use:

1) Either maxxing out key skills, or giving them the skills they need as they need them, or

2) Using a system inspired by the Castles & Crusades' system, which is to say "pick one or two key attributes for an NPC; any skill that falls under that attribute is easier to use than a skill not in that attribute. Any skill that is "prime" the NPC has to roll an 8 or better on a d20; any skill that is "not prime" the NPC has to roll an 16 or better on a d20 to succeed." Highly un-simulationist, but quick as a Unix Daemon.

Some wiser than I said it best: "Rules are for players."