D&D 4E 4E had better have fewer skills & feats

[Stalker0]

Its not that skills are complicated, its that making characters with them is SOOOOO SLOOOOW.

Feats I can go through the ph real quick, narrow down the ones I want, and I'm done.

With skills I have to calculate my skill points, then start picking skills, then go back and forth and check for class/cross class problems. Then I have to check my skill points to make sure I didn't go under/over. Then I look at teh synergy table and put in all my synergies. then I have to add up all my ranks and extra points to calculate my final skill result.

It is needlessly complicated, and imo the weakest aspect of 3E or 3.5E. Now for a player, it may take a while and not be so bad. But as a DM, one I'm making up a few custom npcs, it can take FOREVER!!

 

[Banshee16]

skills are hardly out of control. There are few in the core books I'd get rid of, and even the 1000 new books really hasn't added many new ones. Feats, again there really aren't many I'd get rid of from the core books and many from the optional books that have come out that I'd like to see added. THe game is about options and the more options the better it is. It is easier to have tone down the options from too many then it is to increase the options if the books offer too few.

I agree. The core rules don't have enough feat variants, and, to be honest, much of the stuff created by WotC in terms of feats etc. has been rather vanilla and uninspired anyways. The vast set of new feats created by 3rd party companies has been very important to the game, and for providing interesting options to characters.

Banshee

 

[A'koss]

Folding things together might go like so (using the 3.5 list)...

Hmmm, actually, that's very close to how I've houseruled it. I like the Lore combinations btw...

It is needlessly complicated, and imo the weakest aspect of 3E or 3.5E. Now for a player, it may take a while and not be so bad. But as a DM, one I'm making up a few custom npcs, it can take FOREVER!!

Indeed, and it was a pain x10 in our Epic Level game. This is why I think there has to be a simplier way for D&D to handle skills on the whole and consolidation is only part of the answer.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It isn't being forced when one finds a way to use them with creativity. The DM can easily have simple ways to use different skill in his games. The skills don't have to be the pinicle of the session just a place where it is usefull. Or the player can think of ways to use the skills he has to be useful. Like all abilities players have they only become useful if the player or the DM can think of a way and are willing to think of a way to make them so.

Exactly! I made a compelling use for Decipher Script in my campaign, and the party wizard dropped everything (including Spellcraft and Knowledge [Arcana]) to pick up ranks, even taking Epic Skill Focus [Decipher Script] as her first epic feat.

I'm sure this wouldn't happen in everyone's campaign, but it did in mine.

 

[drothgery]

Indeed, and it was a pain x10 in our Epic Level game. This is why I think there has to be a simplier way for D&D to handle skills on the whole and consolidation is only part of the answer.

Maybe something like the Favored Skills/Known Skills system from Blue Rose (I don't know exactly how the mechanics work on this), where you're just assumed to have max ranks in all skills (and can get access to more skills for the cost of a feat).

 

[Crothian]

Its not that skills are complicated, its that making characters with them is SOOOOO SLOOOOW.

Feats I can go through the ph real quick, narrow down the ones I want, and I'm done.

With skills I have to calculate my skill points, then start picking skills, then go back and forth and check for class/cross class problems. Then I have to check my skill points to make sure I didn't go under/over. Then I look at teh synergy table and put in all my synergies. then I have to add up all my ranks and extra points to calculate my final skill result.

It is needlessly complicated, and imo the weakest aspect of 3E or 3.5E. Now for a player, it may take a while and not be so bad. But as a DM, one I'm making up a few custom npcs, it can take FOREVER!!

I still don't see it.

The class and cross class skills are right on the character sheet as is the whole skill list so one never needs anything but the character sheet. Figureing skill points is middle school math at worst. Even for a high level characters it never takes me long.

And as DM you rarely need to fully stat out NPCs anyway.

 

[Crothian]

Exactly! I made a compelling use for Decipher Script in my campaign, and the party wizard dropped everything (including Spellcraft and Knowledge [Arcana]) to pick up ranks, even taking Epic Skill Focus [Decipher Script] as her first epic feat.

I'm sure this wouldn't happen in everyone's campaign, but it did in mine.

My fighter took a rank in decipher script at second level becasue it was useful in the game. And that's a big investiment for a fighter.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I still don't see it.

The class and cross class skills are right on the character sheet as is the whole skill list so one never needs anything but the character sheet. Figureing skill points is middle school math at worst. Even for a high level characters it never takes me long.

And as DM you rarely need to fully stat out NPCs anyway.

Exactly. For NPCs, the best way to do things is just max out skills. Figure out the total skill ranks and then just get max out what's necessary. Skills are easy. If anything, Feats take time if you're using more than just the PHB.

 

[A'koss]

Maybe something like the Favored Skills/Known Skills system from Blue Rose (I don't know exactly how the mechanics work on this), where you're just assumed to have max ranks in all skills (and can get access to more skills for the cost of a feat).

Blue Rose?

 

[Orius]

skills are hardly out of control. There are few in the core books I'd get rid of, and even the 1000 new books really hasn't added many new ones. Feats, again there really aren't many I'd get rid of from the core books and many from the optional books that have come out that I'd like to see added. THe game is about options and the more options the better it is. It is easier to have tone down the options from too many then it is to increase the options if the books offer too few.

I'm with Crothian here. The skill list is SMALLER than the 2e NWP prof. list, mainly because redundant skills were combined. I don't have a problem with the skill system as written, and since few new skills have been added, that says to me that the system as a whole is good.

I don't think feats are really mad out of control, since much of the feat glut comes from optional none-core sources. If the DM doesn't want all that in the game, then it's his place to trim them out.