4e Has Less Raw Content: Fact!

[jgbrowning]

The MM should have more thouroughly covered the lower level monsters and spent little space on the higher level creatures. Space was at a premium, and every creature's inclusion should have been based upon what was the most likely to be used by the largest number of gamers. Personally, I would have preferred MM to have creatures of 1-15th level and have higher level creatures appear in the MM2 and online sources in the interem period between MM and MM2.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

*double post*

 

[JeffB]

That's great.

I never stopped having a desire to play D&D so I'm not coming at it from the same angle as you.

I'm also unsure that my initial post claims that you can't have fun with 4e as I note that I'm running it.

But hey, post away amigo.

No worries Joe- I know exactly what you are saying and I agree re: raw content. I was just trying to state in a lighthearted way that all the added raw material of 3.0 didn't matter cos I didn't enjoy running the game and ultimately dropped around the time 3.5 showed up.

I do wish WOTC would up the "bang for the buck" factor-although I've not been happy so far, it seems the DDI magazines are the only really "good values" (as long as one is happy w/ the content). The Starter kit looks to be as well. But I'm not a WOTC fan when it comes to supplemental material anyway- I've taken my $ elsewhere since 3E was released :shrug:

I think the 4E MM is the only place I really feel "shafted"- I love the way it was done- I love the new statblocks and all the variety of standard creatures- but that book def seems "thin".

The 4E DMG I think is actually just about perfect because it's such an actually good GUIDE to being a DM- When comparing it to the 3.5 MM it may seem a bit thin but there was alot of material added from supplemental books- the 3.0 DMG version was pretty useless outside of the Magic Items and some key explanations for things like conditions.

The 4E PHB- yeah I'd like to have seen Dragondorks,Tieflings, and possibly the Warlord dropped for more rituals, and I prefer my magic items in the DMG, but otherwise I'm OK with that book.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The MM should have more thouroughly covered the lower level monsters and spent little space on the higher level creatures. Space was at a premium, and every creature's inclusion should have been based upon what was the most likely to be used by the largest number of gamers. Personally, I would have preferred MM to have creatures of 1-15th level and have higher level creatures appear in the MM2 and online sources in the interem period between MM and MM2.

joe b.

It's even more maddening when you see just how much EMPTY space there is. You look at the githyanki and they could've put a whole nother stat block on that empty spot on page 128 for minions or something. Heck, maybe "gasp" another paragraph of background on them or something. . Or the Rakshasa on 218. They couldn't put anything on that quarter page?

It's like they had all these great ideas but couldn't implement them in their own book.

 

[jgbrowning]

It's even more maddening when you see just how much EMPTY space there is. You look at the githyanki and they could've put a whole nother stat block on that empty spot on page 128 for minions or something. Heck, maybe "gasp" another paragraph of background on them or something. . Or the Rakshasa on 218. They couldn't put anything on that quarter page?

It's like they had all these great ideas but couldn't implement them in their own book.

I'm also disappointed with the white space. They should have written additional material for those spaces. There's plenty of history around almost every creature that an addition paragraph or two would have been easy to create while being very informative to the new players the edition is attempting to attract. It was an opportunity missed, IMO. I'll have to wait until MM2 to see if they share my assessment.

joe b.

 

[Hypersmurf]

- useless "flavor" monster powers inspired much of my homebrew's ecology and cosmology

One of my favourite bits of flavour in my homebrew was inspired by a single sentence in the 3.5 MM: "Otyughs speak common."

In the 4E MM, unfortunately, the Otyugh stat block contains "Languages: --".

Well, tough. Even in 4E, my otyughs speak common!

-Hyp.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Maybe Joe wants a rules set that saves him work instead of requires it?

I for one love using Elementals, giants, Metallics, etc... So if I was going to stick with 4E beyond the current game I am in I would be angry that they left such creatures for later MM's. Fortunately I am not, so my BP is just fine.

How does 3E save work? How does 4E create work?

Are they both creating different kinds of work? That's a wash.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Joe, what are you missing right now?

Out of your list, I'd guess elementals--although the giants have kind of moved into that role--and animated objects, which I don't have an alternative for yet. The metallics are only reasonably useful in extremely limited circumstances--high-level mounts, mass combat, an "evil" campaign, and as NPC/patrons. I look forward to them when they come, but I'm not pining for them (like I am psionics).

So why not see this as an opportunity to fill some of that in? You're a brilliant designer and writer--start trying to fill what you see as the holes, especially for the items that will likely not get covered for a couple years.

I'm a brilliant cynic!

I'm already messing with some stuff and one of the things I do like about 4e is that I have a feeling that due to it's massive lack, I'll be winging stuff a lot more. I copied out the various charts from Chapter 10 and have just started pegging around different monsters that I'll be using.

Skirmisher Air Elemental
Initiative bonus 2 2
Hit Points 8+CON + (level x 8) 46
AC Level + 14 17
Other defenses Level +12 15
Attacks vs AC* Level +5 8
Attack vs. other defenses Level +3 6
Wind Slash 1d10+3
Whirlwind
Burst 2 2d10+3

If I'm going to have to "work" with a system, I generally rather do it with one with the break down is the same for everyone like Fantasy Hero.

 

[Kishin]

Oh boy, is it time for this argument again?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yes.