D&D 4E 4e Heal info in new Confessions article

[withak]

Evidence for this is easily found in that the warlord has the martial power source, which isn't completely nonmagical, but certainly less magical than other power sources.

Could you clarify this a bit? Are fighters and warlords going to have powers that are, essentially, magical, or is it more open to interpretation?

 

[Insight]

If you do not like the extra healing, get rid of it. Make a 'grittier' 4e. I will play 4e as-is for a while, and then decide on personal changes. I do not like the idea of second wind. I didn't like it in Star Wars, I do not like it in 4e. I will play it, however, and then form a basis in fact rather than apprehension.

Well said. We are all speculating on what the final product will bring (and also assuming that no changes, house rules, or errata will be published thereafter). Maybe try it before you bash it.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

None of the abstractions of the 4e D&D game are outside the realm of imagination’s ability to explain in a fun way within the narrative of the game. I can’t agree with assertions to the contrary.

This is a problem I've always had with not the rules but gamers in general and their claim that RPG's promote the use of imagination but then turn around are so resistant to using said imagination when it comes to the game.

 

[Greg K]

Dalvyn and mmu1 both summed up my problems with bloodied, second wind, etc. . )ther problems that I have with bloodied are:

1) the designers are telling me how a creature is going to act when reduced to a certain hp % and it always applies to that type of creature.

2) it comes across as gimmicky. I think this goes back to what Dalvyn was saying about the designers thinking something sounding like a cool idea and then trying to build rules to accomodate it. I see what appears to be (to me) a lot of this in the bits revealed about 4e and the designers trying to pass it off as "Kewl", but to me it is just "cheesey" and a turn off.
Same to my friends.

3) it allows players to exactly know when they have reduced a creature to that % of hit point loss.

 

[mmu1]

Speculation: In Saga, all classed foes have second winds. While currently we've only 3rd level, the second wind has YET to reset an encounter, usually it just prolongs it another round or two. Your con or 1/4 your total hp is a small amount, and it doesn't swing the fight to much unless you already had a way to swing it and you just need a few more rounds to get there...

Well, like I said - I think Second Wind is a relatively minor (but still possibly important) example of that sort of thing.

I was thinking more along the lines of the example fight with the dragon - it's a solo monster that's supposed to be able to challenge the party, so it apparently has tons of these triggers that give it extra actions and attacks... though it looks like a lot of other monsters will also have similar abilities, albeit to a lesser degree.

The "insant free action as a response to players doing a certain amount of damage" thing really reminds me of the way many JRPG monsters (bosses, especially) operate, and I generally find those annoying as hell. "Haha! I have reduced you to 25hp - you die now, foul beast! Have at... wait, the hell? You're invulnerable all of a suddden? What are you casting? Why can't I interrupt that? Hey, where did HE come from? I don't like the way that... AARGH OH GOD I JUST TOOK 650HP OF FIRE DAMAGE AND I'M BLIND! AAAAH! PHOENIX DOWN! PHOENIX DOWN!"

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Dalvyn and mmu1 both summed up my problems with bloodied, second wind, etc. . )ther problems that I have with bloodied are:

1) the designers are telling me how a creature is going to act when reduced to a certain hp % and it always applies to that type of creature.

Unless I am mistaken, they just get an option. I am not sure if these things force creatures to use these abilities. (Though I can see exceptions - maybe a "Bloodied" Ooze splits into two parts, an action he probably can't supress just because there is a fireballing wizard around)

2) it comes across as gimmicky. I think this goes back to what Dalvyn was saying about the designers thinking something sounding like a cool idea and then trying to build rules to accomodate it. I see what appears to be (to me) a lot of this in the bits revealed about 4e and the designers trying to pass it off as "Kewl", but to me it is just "cheesey" and a turn off.
Same to my friends.

If I remember correctly, part of the concept of Bloodied started with the MM V. These seem to be the points to use it:
- Indication of how the battle is going on. (see also below)
- Making an individual monster fight more dynamic. It is not limited to a small set of tactics, instead over the whole duration of a fight, instead its options change. On the other hand, it limits the complexity. The DM knows that only if its at half HP it has access to a specific set of options (or loses it).
There might be more, but these seem to be more than gimicky. They seem pretty fundamental, addressing the binary way D&D hit points work. Before we had "Bloodied", a monster had just two states - living or dead. Not it has the states living, hurt and dead.
Starwars used another way by implementing a "Condition Track" that added more than 1 state, but its effect (as used in the core book at least) wasn't particularly exciting - you just took some penalties. But that's "just" a death spiral. The Bloodied condition does more than that.

3) it allows players to exactly know when they have reduced a creature to that % of hit point loss.

Well, they already know when a creature is at 0 or below 0 hit points. But I can see that you might like more guessworking. Note that it's not really "exactly" knowing. They don't know if their last hit just brought it barely to its bloodied state, or if it is way into it.
Personally, I see this as a good thing. It gives PCs a better way to gauge their success in a combat.
"Okay, Round 4 and Pete's Fighter and Johns Rogue are already bloodied and have used one healing surge. But the monster doesn't give any indication of being bloodied. I think we need a plan B!" The nice thing in this is that plan B might be "Let's run as fast as we can!" In "normal" D&D, you'd probably have one PC down by the time you understand that you're in over your head.

 

[Greg K]

If bloodied was merely an additional state that inflicted penalties and indicated how a particular battle was going, I would have no problem. The gimmick, imo, is triggering monster attacks (e.g., the dragon's area attack in an early playtest)- it might be cool the first time the player's ever encounter that particular creature type's ability, but after that it is just an annoyingly cheesey ability in my opinion and that of the friends with whom I have talked about bloodied.

 

[Dragonblade]

Dalvyn and mmu1 both summed up my problems with bloodied, second wind, etc. . )ther problems that I have with bloodied are:

1) the designers are telling me how a creature is going to act when reduced to a certain hp % and it always applies to that type of creature.

2) it comes across as gimmicky. I think this goes back to what Dalvyn was saying about the designers thinking something sounding like a cool idea and then trying to build rules to accomodate it. I see what appears to be (to me) a lot of this in the bits revealed about 4e and the designers trying to pass it off as "Kewl", but to me it is just "cheesey" and a turn off.
Same to my friends.

3) it allows players to exactly know when they have reduced a creature to that % of hit point loss.

1) This doesn't bother me. In fact I like the battle changing at a certain point, or creatures with interrupt attacks. That actually is cool in my opinion and makes fights more interesting.

2) Well, all my gaming friends think its great.

3) Again, not a problem. It allows for a possible shift in tactics, it opens up new abilities that can only be accessed when bloodied. I like it.

 

[pemerton]

That kind of "the hero just won't stay down" ability works great in a climactic moment. If you use it in every encounter it turns into an "I recover some of my hit-points" ability.

As I noted in an earlier post, maybe every encounter should be a climactic moment. Otherwise, what contribution is the encounter making to the game?

Each PC, and thereby player, has more control over healing. I'd like to point out that I never mentioned NPCs or monsters having these things.

Yet more evidence of the well-thought-out quality of 4e design. Thanks for the posts, Chris.

 

[Evilhalfling]

from either SWSE or 4e teasers:

Is second wind limited to 1/4 max hp?
I thought it could also be used to restore hp = con
I am trying this in a 3.75 game in the pbp forums, and it was used today. A 2nd level character with three arrows in him was suddenly restored to full (8hp) and it is bothering eveyone's suspension of disbelief (except the victim)

Clarification would be helpful.