D&D 4E 4E, Healing, and Suspension of Disbelief

[Ander00]

Well, that's part of the problem right there. Confusing terminology. When you call the only means of replacing lost HP other than rest things like Cure Wounds and Healing Potions people are bound to be led to think that way. I mean they're called HIT points for crying out loud. You have to get "hit" to lose them for the most part. 4e has the same problem with the term "healing surge".

Not the only means. Take for example, the warlord's Aid the Injured utility power "Your presence is both a comfort and an inspiration". The in-game result? The target can spend a healing surge.

What you're talking about is what previous editions called subdual/nonlethal damage. And those editions had rules that allowed characters to recover a heck of a lot quicker than from any other type of damage. How do you reconcile that? Someone hits you with a fist and it doesn't hurt your "morale" as much?

I'm fairly certain a near-miss or grazing hit with a sword would hurt my morale more than it would with a bare fist "Oh crap, he very nearly took my head off with that one!" as opposed to "I'm sure glad I still have all my teeth".


cheers

 

[Xereq]

Do these fights of yours include swords, daggers, axes, halberds, arrows, crossbows, fireballs, poison, lighting bolts, and magic missiles? If so, can you please tell me when and where the next one is going down?

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!
I still say no matter the source of the damage the human (or demihuman to be PC ) spirit and body can prove to be greater than the sum of its parts. Your character is supposed to be a cinematic hero in combat, and the hero generally soldiers on despite his wounds, for whatever reason motivates your character to keep living and win the fight. (lol say its the "power of friendship" if you lack a better reason.) Thats why you can use one "action point" and once "second wind" per encounter. It isn't healing from badass-osity, its your character getting the fight put back in em.

What you're talking about is what previous editions called subdual/nonlethal damage. And those editions had rules that allowed characters to recover a heck of a lot quicker than from any other type of damage. How do you reconcile that? Someone hits you with a fist and it doesn't hurt your "morale" as much?

I'm talking about UFC type fights, fights between guys who can break your arm or ribs with a punch. Is it still "nonleathal" if guys can walk away with brain damage (ability score drain) broken ribs, whole bodies swelling (ability damage) or even fall down dead if you hit them the wrong way (stun em, get combat advantage and strike the base of the skull or directly into the gut.) Guys get second winds after their bodies take that kind of trauma if they're tough enough to be in the fight, and can even win after getting back up from unconciousness.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I've posted this before, but this is how in 4e how HP, Healing Surges, etc. work for me:

Amount of Maximum HP: This represents how well that PC can deal with wounds inflicted upon them, and how badly a attack is inflicted upon them.

So for example a Fighter and Wizard at maximum HP are both hit for same amount of damage, however description wise the Wizard's attack was a lot more harsh. With a Minion given the 1 HP that one strike while doing the same damage was much more punishing to the Minion, ie: decapitation.

Decreasing of HP: As HP decreases this shows the the PC/Monster through a combination of wounds, pain, stress, fatigue, and other circumstances is slowly winding themselves down to suffering a incapacitating hit. Essentially their fighting capacity begins to deplete.

Healing Surges: A Healing Surge represents the PC/Monster being able to regain some composure and ignore some of the pain they have suffered and regain some of their fighting capacity. This is why things such as a Warlord's Healing Abilities can work, since he is helping the PC regain some of his fighting capacity, not actually fixing physical wounds.

As Healing Surges decrease however, this shows that it takes more and more effort to work past the various wounds, fatigue and other things piled against the PC to fight/work affectively. Thus when a PC reaches 0 Healing Surges they are at the end of their tether and cannot reach beyond their limitations.

In many regards Healing Surges is a better representation of actual physical health, because the more it decreases the more physically unable the PC is to fight affectively.

Describing This All: Essentially all together, this means that PCs with less Maximum HP when hit suffer worse wounds and are debilitated more by it. Though the actual physical stress these wounds have on the body truly show when Healing Surges begin to run out and wounds and other things pile up.

Thus a fighter with 0 Healing Surges but Maximum HP will look worse then a Wizard with full Healing Surges and almost no HP.

 

[Zurai]

Do these fights of yours include swords, daggers, axes, halberds, arrows, crossbows, fireballs, poison, lighting bolts, and magic missiles? If so, can you please tell me when and where the next one is going down?

Have you never watched Die Hard?

Or Fight Club, for that matter.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's amazing how often this topic comes up and is discussed. I thought everyone had read the original ones by now, but I suppose that's how it always is with D&D topics. Alignment Threads, 3.x Grapple rule discussions, they all come back...

Don't worry with suspension of disbelief.

Here is what you can do:
Rename Hit Points to "Combat Readiness Points"
Rename "Healing Surge" to "Combat Readiness Surge"
Rename the "Healing" keyword to "Combat Readiness Recovery"
Rename "Regeneration" to "Combat Readiness Regeneration"

You don't have to rename "Bloodied", though. If you get bloodied, you take an injury. It's not a bad one, but it is a visual clue you're no longer as combat ready as you where.

Or read the quote of Gary Gygax describing what hit points represent.

 

[silentounce]

Not the only means. Take for example, the warlord's Aid the Injured utility power "Your presence is both a comfort and an inspiration". The in-game result? The target can spend a healing surge.

The quote I was responding to was about previous editions. My entire response was also about previous editions, except for my last sentence. Hence, "4e has the same problem with..."

Obviously, that 4e utility power didn't exist in those previous editions.

 

[mach1.9pants]

watch the troy fight scene with achilles and hector. An awesome fight where guys sure look like they are loosing HP (well hector) without getting any physical damage....until the end.
Spear into hector...reduce to less than 0HP
followed up by Coup de grace with the short sword.

 

[Tharizdun]

there's a lot of stuff in current (and past DnD) that wouldn't make sense in real life, but it's been said before by the designers, realism isn't playable.

If a character worshiping gods and slaying monsters can somehow find the energy within him to overcome damage/fatigue, why not?

I remember how I myself was tired & lost with a group in the Italian Alps and how surprised I was to find my own second wind. You only have to take a look at the placebo effect to show you that the mind can be a powerful healing agent.

I also think much of it comes down to adaptability; whether a DnD player can adapt to the new system or not. Some people hate change, others do not.

 

[TheLordWinter]

Have you never watched Die Hard?

Or Fight Club, for that matter.

I mean this in the nicest possible of ways, but I think a better question is have you ever been seriously injured, yourself? I am rather accident prone, and have broken a few bones and busted myself up on a few occasions - when I snapped my ankle I was not only able to walk it off but also drive myself and some friends home.

Sheer adrenaline can do a lot - perhaps you can represent a Healing Surge to yourself not as the removal of physical injury, but the capacity to ignore that injury for a time until later on when you take an extended rest and realize how badly hurt you really were. So your fighter might be able to ignore the wound in his side for now, but when he goes to lie down he discovers the gaping wound in his side and needs to wrap it with herb-soaked poultices to keep it from getting infected and to heal it.

 

[Family]

It is easier for me to believe in magic, than to believe I could "walk off" being struck by lightning.

Just for fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Sullivan