D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

[Sword of Spirit]

Oh I will agree the system as it was in 4e could have used refinement. I just like the philosophy and basic principles... and I'm just sad 5e didn't go for a proper refinement of the system instead of just reverting to some janky 3e call back.

Just to clarify, that's not what happened. To develop 5e the designers went back and played every edition of D&D (starting way back at OD&D I believe). They attempted to create a game that captured the best and most well-received parts of that decades long history of editions. D&D 5e is a sequel to D&D collectively, not to any particular edition. During the public playtest, they made many changes in different directions, which included adding new elements that resembled each edition, and subtracting other elements that resembled each edition. What we ended up with is what appealed most to the collective voice of over 100,000 fans of various editions. While it's basic structure probably sits somewhere between 2e and 3e, there are plenty of features that were inspired by 4e that made it in, such as at-will attacks, and even the usage of hit dice is inspired by healing surges. It's also worth noting that there is an explicit "Healing Surges" variant on page 266 of the DMG that makes HD work a lot more like healing surges did in 4e.

 

[CapnZapp]

As the thread title say. I think the concept of the Healing Surges and how healing worked was way better than what we have had before and since.

HP was turned from a single daily block into an encounter based ressources, with Healing Surge replacing the daily resource aspect. You could, theoretically have a very low HP character for whom all fights are dangerous, but they can do more of those fights in a day simply by having more Healing Surges.

Furthermore, healing spells and healing potions scaled much better (we didn't need multiple Potion of Healing types) and did not result in 'free HP' (I know spells have slot costs, but potions basically let you turn gold into free HP out of nowhere!) since you always tapped into Healing Surges. A 5e Healing Word heals a much greater % of a Wizard's HP than a Barbarian, even on the same dice roll and I think it's wasteful. It also led to interesting mechanics that allowed to share Healing Surges from one party member to the other.

Healing Surges were also used to denote the effect of environmental hazards as well as cost for certain rituals.

All in all, I think the current Hit Dice system and healing style is pretty subpar and its scaling is just more fiddly than Healing Surges.

Agree or disagree?

You don't mention with a single word the by far biggest downside of the 4E system, that all by itself disqualifies the system for me:

That healing surges were tied to individuals.

Meaning, that in order to properly utilize this important resource, every party member must ensure he or she takes their fair share of the incoming damage.

The notion that a ranger shooting arrows from afar doesn't pull her weight unless she goes in close and soaks a couple of good whacks... or that the Wizard needs to break cover and "meat shield" at least a mook or two...

Completely broke 4E for us.

5E has a healing surges concept, but it is no longer the by far most important source of healing, so it isn't a problem it's tied to each individual.

 

[Zardnaar]

That may be sacrificing fantasy tropes for a game issue instead of reconfiguring the game part. Basically I think brewing of potions and crafting of magic unctures is very common fantasy arguably healing is like the real world most common claimed magic and yes done with potions and crystals and muds and herbs and so on. Of course most of that healing could be seen as rituals to remove afflictions and disease rather than invigorating a roughed up hero.
4e made potions basically an energy drink but only a minor action so still useful if you lack a leader. (yet still limited)

They tend to craft 1 item though not a multitude.

 

[Fanaelialae]

You don't mention with a single word the by far biggest downside of the 4E system, that all by itself disqualifies the system for me:

That healing surges were tied to individuals.

Meaning, that in order to properly utilize this important resource, every party member must ensure he or she takes their fair share of the incoming damage.

The notion that a ranger shooting arrows from afar doesn't pull her weight unless she goes in close and soaks a couple of good whacks... or that the Wizard needs to break cover and "meat shield" at least a mook or two...

Completely broke 4E for us.

5E has a healing surges concept, but it is no longer the by far most important source of healing, so it isn't a problem it's tied to each individual.

Defenders (fighters) had significantly more surges than strikers (rangers). It could happen that a fighter caught several bad beatings throughout the day and ran out of surges, meaning that other characters would need to step up. It wasn't the consequence of a single fight, but rather multiple, so you could see it coming. It also wasn't something that would happen every adventure.

4e was more a team-oriented game than other versions of D&D. So, yes, the game assumed that everyone would pull their weight and contribute. Sometimes that would mean less tough characters taking a bit of heat to divert it from the a tough character who was being overwhelmed. Personally, I liked it, since it forced a degree of variety into tactical considerations. You couldn't just have the fighter tank all the mobs every fight. Sometimes you needed to improvise a bit and figure out how to win the fight with what resources remained. Those tended to be exciting fights, IME.

I'm not suggesting you're wrong for disliking it. I'm simply presenting my alternate viewpoint regarding the matter.

 

[Neonchameleon]

D&D has always had the hit point model of a computer fighting game - everyone is at 100% effectiveness as this arbitrary bar depletes until someone loses them all and goes down. Some D&D games are effectively Mortal Combat XI levels of brutal with X-ray shots of bones breaking from special moves - and then the fight continuing with a broken sternum not doing anything to slow the target. That this doesn't work in 4e is not 4e's problem.

4e at least justified that by moving the whole thing to a Hollywood Physics grounding complete with catching your breath being effective recovery (second wind) and boxing style pacing where you could spend surges between rounds.

You don't mention with a single word the by far biggest downside of the 4E system, that all by itself disqualifies the system for me:

That healing surges were tied to individuals.

There's a ritual that was introduced in one of the earliest books to share them around (the casting cost includes one healing surge). And no the wizard didn't have to tank even without it because the fighters could never stop everything. Personally I found this degraded the game because it meant that you needed less planning and the fighter just did it all - but if that's what you were missing it was there.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm not suggesting you're wrong for disliking it. I'm simply presenting my alternate viewpoint regarding the matter.

Thank you.

Yes, we are both responding to Undrave's discussion subject.

 

[CapnZapp]

it was there.

Sorry, this is the "later books fixes your complaint, so it isn't valid" argument.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sorry, this is the "later books fixes your complaint, so it isn't valid" argument.

Sorry, but if one very simple and obvious tweak that was offered very early on in the official rules and was trivial to houserule can fix something that "that all by itself disqualifies the system for me" then it seems fairly obvious you're looking for perfection. Had you just called it a downside, not something that "Completely broke 4E for us" then I'd have had sympathy.

Albeit no sympathy at all for your wizards and rangers that wanted to just sit on their tushes all day while the fighter masochistically took close to 100% of the incoming damage - with the cleric's magic enabling them to take a literally inhuman amount of abuse. I don't understand why characters being expected to all take a share of the lumps is something that's a complete gamebreaker. It's not as if the AC14 wizard can take remotely the pounding in melee the AC19 fighter can - but a many on one fight should inflict more damage.

For that matter the idea that the wizard and ranger shouldn't be taking their share of the lumps means that the bad guys should only be coming for you in ways you expect and can directly manage. Nice of them to play into your hands like that rather than be trying to gank the wizard because they are a wizard, and melee the ranger to stop them shooting. There's a reason that ritual was one of the few things I ever banned outright as a DM for vastly degrading both the tactical and the realism parts of the game - I fully agree with the choice not to have it available by default, but if that's what broke the game for you it was a very simple fix.

And yes 4e was released at least six months before it was ready, and this was a problem.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not a fan of healing in 4e. I prefer 5e's separation of healing powers from hit dice healing and using both as a hybrid model f on previous editions.

But I like the healing surge abilities as an additional concept and would like more options to spend hit dice as part of abilities in addition to spells outside of a short rest beyond a dwarven racial feat.

There is the optional healing surge mechanic in 5E in the DMG, pg. 266.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There is the optional healing surge mechanic in 5E in the DMG, pg. 266.

That's basically the 4e "Second Wind" rule - as a standard action someone can spend a healing surge to regain a quarter of their hit points, and can't do again until after a short rest. The 4e Healing Surge mechanic is basically the 5e Hit Dice mechanic except you get reserve hit points roughly equal to twice your base hp rather than almost your base hp, and most "healing" is expected to come out of this pool of the character's own reserves rather than out of the cleric's healing spells.

Actual magical healing (as requested by @Ashrym in the comment you were replying to) in 4e is healing that does not involve spending a healing surge (or hit dice); there is the separation of healing powers from unlocking your internal reserves. It's just magical healing in 4e is rare rather than something every single first level cleric can do and something every party comes equipped with.