D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

4E's big mistake was ignoring this unspoken arrangement and thinking that players took that "hit points are not meat" section seriously.
I think most players in 5e are perfectly fine with taking that concept seriously, so I kinda doubt that's it.

Honestly, I think at some point we just gotta accept that 4e got axed because of a combination of pretty small things and bad marketing, along with very resentful fans in some corners of the community, and defensiveness on the part of those of us who enjoyed it and just wanted people to stop whining about it and play whatever thing they liked, and all of which split the fanbase.

Like...the edition war itself ended 4e.
 

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It might be more accurate to call them "deflection points". But hit points have fewer syllables and sounds more vivid, and means the amount of hits necessary before a deadly injury becomes possible.
 

From my perspective, slow healing is precisely what causes it to fall apart. Slow healing is only possible if every attack that deals damage results in physical injury.
I agree that slow healing only makes sense if every attack results in physical injury, but I disagree that it causes anything to fall apart. Rather, I posit that physical injury is the only way to make sense of it all, because any other model will create significantly more problems than it can solve.

It seems to me, that entails rationalizing how every attack, including an orcish greataxe or a giant swinging an oak tree, causes some small injury to the character, like a scratch or a bruise.
Considering the language of the game, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch. If an orc "hits" you with an axe, it causes "damage"; and since you aren't "dead" that means the damage was non-fatal. This is literally just taking everything at face value. Absolutely zero rationalization is required here.

Additionally, we somehow need to address why these superhuman individuals require weeks or even months to heal those bruises and scratches. In the real world, injuries typically heal in parallel rather than serially.
That seems kinda nit-picky to me, but it's the perfect place to add a house rule, if you feel it's necessary. If there's one place I agree with Gygax, it's that it would be inefficient to spend too much detail in modeling things that aren't important.

Obviously, attacks with an effect that require contact can be assumed to have made such contact. Hit points might represent some degree of physical resilience, but no more than we would expect of a tough soldier in our own world. Primarily though, they are more ephemeral factors (like the skill to dodge a deadly attack at the last second). Of course, in this context, slow healing makes no sense since hit points represent factors that you can recover readily, such as the fatigue caused by twisting out of the way of an otherwise lethal attack.
Of course, if hit points represent factors that are easily recovered, then slow healing makes no sense. But as you say, some attacks definitely do make physical contact. If the giant scorpion's sting didn't actually pierce your flesh, then you wouldn't have to save against its effects, or take a lesser effect on a successful save. If you fall from a dragon, then you're going to hit the ground pretty hard, and knowing how to roll is not a sufficient explanation (and it's usually covered by a separate mechanic anyway, which just reduces the amount of damage).

So clearly, some damage is physical. And the rules don't distinguish between physical damage and non-physical damage in any way whatsoever; if you try to explain this 4 damage from a dagger as fatigue, but that 4 damage from a dagger as physical, then it's weird for them to both recover at the same rate; doubly so, if that recovery comes from a warlord's inspiration. Logically, it makes more sense if all damage has basically the same nature, since the rules treat it all the same regardless. If damage could express itself in such a wide variety of ways, such that inspirational recovery makes sense for healing some damage but not other damage, then you'd expect the rules to make that distinction at any point. And since we know that at least some damage is physical, the only logical interpretation is that all damage is physical.
"Injuries" such as visible bruises and scratches aren't even necessarily hit point loss, since these might not impede the character's performance in a meaningful way. Under this definition, loss of HP does not necessarily equate to physical harm.
It's impressive that it hasn't come up yet, but yes, the alternative possibility is that no HP damage is actually physical in nature. When you have something like warlord inspiration (or Healing Surges, or recovery Hit Dice) as a core aspect of the system, it does seem much more reasonable than the alternative, where all damage is physical. It does mean, however, that our model - which ostensibly exists to determine what happens when a bunch of people whack at each other with swords - doesn't have any way to express that anyone has actually been hit. Short of them bleeding out on the ground, which probably involved a physical hit, but which can nevertheless be recovered from using non-physical means.

And of course, you can still be stabbed by a giant scorpion, and the hole it leaves in you is left entirely to narrative rather than mechanics, since the rules don't concern themselves with the possibility of physical injury. In fact, you can be stabbed any number of times, and you'll be fine once the warlord inspires all of the poison out of your system.

I mean, I hope you can see why that is not a terribly satisfying narrative. If the difference between a "hit" and a "miss" is the amount of effort they had to expend while dodging, then why are we even rolling when the outcome is that they dodge either way? Why are we bothering with such a complex system for measuring intangibles, but completely ignoring substantial metrics such as bodily integrity? I mean, it may be a relatively more consistent approach than trying to walk the line with mostly-non-physical HP in earlier edition, but the end result doesn't really tell us what actually happened; which is the whole point of using a statistical model in the first place.
 

Sure. But 1E, 2E, and 3E have a kind of wink-wink-nudge-nudge solution to the problem: You carefully explain that hit points are not just meat, and high-level characters are not made of iron, there's luck and fate and stamina involved and so on and so forth.

And then, throughout the rest of the rules, you treat hit points as if they were 100% meat, and high-level characters are made of iron. You use words like "heal" and "damage" and "wounds" everywhere. Any time someone complains about the absurdity, you point them at the place where it says hit points are not meat, and mostly they shut up.

4E's big mistake was ignoring this unspoken arrangement and thinking that players took that "hit points are not meat" section seriously.
It should be obvious to everyone that the whole "luck and stamina" caveat was only put in there to silence detractors, since the rest of the model ignores it entirely, and uses completely different mechanics for measuring actual luck and stamina and whatnot.

Gravity doesn't care how you measure it. It's going to keep on doing its thing, regardless of any claims to the contrary.
 

I think both 4e and 5e are an improvement on anything prior. Broadly speaking, I see the 5e healing system as having a similar conceptual source to 4e, but a very different expression.

4e is great at making stamina a resource, and the number of healing surges meant that you could actually treat it as quasi-economic. It played really well into the balance and combat systems, too. It's a brilliant system.

I prefer the 5e model, though. It's not as perfectly balanced, but (having run a lot of both 4e and 5e) I find the 5e model is amazing if you want to have the players feel that they are working hard. I have had periods where the party are rarely out of resources, and periods where they haven't had all their hit dice for a week or more.

(... Maybe that's just a thing with 4e and 5e: 4e is aimed much more at the second-to-second resource handling, while 5e is less precise at the small scale but does a good job at larger scale. Or maybe it's just that I appreciate healing systems that make it a resource to be interacted with, and 5e has tools that fit my mind better (exhaustion, for instance, is one of my favourite things new to 5e)
 

I think both 4e and 5e are an improvement on anything prior. Broadly speaking, I see the 5e healing system as having a similar conceptual source to 4e, but a very different expression.

4e is great at making stamina a resource, and the number of healing surges meant that you could actually treat it as quasi-economic. It played really well into the balance and combat systems, too. It's a brilliant system.

I prefer the 5e model, though. It's not as perfectly balanced, but (having run a lot of both 4e and 5e) I find the 5e model is amazing if you want to have the players feel that they are working hard. I have had periods where the party are rarely out of resources, and periods where they haven't had all their hit dice for a week or more.

(... Maybe that's just a thing with 4e and 5e: 4e is aimed much more at the second-to-second resource handling, while 5e is less precise at the small scale but does a good job at larger scale. Or maybe it's just that I appreciate healing systems that make it a resource to be interacted with, and 5e has tools that fit my mind better (exhaustion, for instance, is one of my favourite things new to 5e)
I wish I could use the exhaustion track more. My players hate it so much I just get a series of groans when I haul it out. And not the good kind of hate either.
 

I wish I could use the exhaustion track more. My players hate it so much I just get a series of groans when I haul it out. And not the good kind of hate either.
Move to gritty rests. Add ability to burn a single HD to (a) remove an exhastion, (b) heal lost max HP (rolled value) on a short (overnight) rest.

Give long rest after 7th day of no damage/exhastion/etc.

Pace game based on that; daily "scene" encounter budget is 4 easy, 2 medium, 1 hard + 1 easy, or 1 deadly ish. Weekly "chapter" is 3 scenes on days with less than a week's gap of rest between them. Then a week of downtime.

Harder scenes/chapters are doable.

Lowers your per-fight budget you can expect players to handle. But exhastion is no longer "I will be tired until I gain 3 more levels" of base 5e.
 

I agree that slow healing only makes sense if every attack results in physical injury, but I disagree that it causes anything to fall apart. Rather, I posit that physical injury is the only way to make sense of it all, because any other model will create significantly more problems than it can solve.


Considering the language of the game, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch. If an orc "hits" you with an axe, it causes "damage"; and since you aren't "dead" that means the damage was non-fatal. This is literally just taking everything at face value. Absolutely zero rationalization is required here.


That seems kinda nit-picky to me, but it's the perfect place to add a house rule, if you feel it's necessary. If there's one place I agree with Gygax, it's that it would be inefficient to spend too much detail in modeling things that aren't important.


Of course, if hit points represent factors that are easily recovered, then slow healing makes no sense. But as you say, some attacks definitely do make physical contact. If the giant scorpion's sting didn't actually pierce your flesh, then you wouldn't have to save against its effects, or take a lesser effect on a successful save. If you fall from a dragon, then you're going to hit the ground pretty hard, and knowing how to roll is not a sufficient explanation (and it's usually covered by a separate mechanic anyway, which just reduces the amount of damage).

So clearly, some damage is physical. And the rules don't distinguish between physical damage and non-physical damage in any way whatsoever; if you try to explain this 4 damage from a dagger as fatigue, but that 4 damage from a dagger as physical, then it's weird for them to both recover at the same rate; doubly so, if that recovery comes from a warlord's inspiration. Logically, it makes more sense if all damage has basically the same nature, since the rules treat it all the same regardless. If damage could express itself in such a wide variety of ways, such that inspirational recovery makes sense for healing some damage but not other damage, then you'd expect the rules to make that distinction at any point. And since we know that at least some damage is physical, the only logical interpretation is that all damage is physical.

It's impressive that it hasn't come up yet, but yes, the alternative possibility is that no HP damage is actually physical in nature. When you have something like warlord inspiration (or Healing Surges, or recovery Hit Dice) as a core aspect of the system, it does seem much more reasonable than the alternative, where all damage is physical. It does mean, however, that our model - which ostensibly exists to determine what happens when a bunch of people whack at each other with swords - doesn't have any way to express that anyone has actually been hit. Short of them bleeding out on the ground, which probably involved a physical hit, but which can nevertheless be recovered from using non-physical means.

And of course, you can still be stabbed by a giant scorpion, and the hole it leaves in you is left entirely to narrative rather than mechanics, since the rules don't concern themselves with the possibility of physical injury. In fact, you can be stabbed any number of times, and you'll be fine once the warlord inspires all of the poison out of your system.

I mean, I hope you can see why that is not a terribly satisfying narrative. If the difference between a "hit" and a "miss" is the amount of effort they had to expend while dodging, then why are we even rolling when the outcome is that they dodge either way? Why are we bothering with such a complex system for measuring intangibles, but completely ignoring substantial metrics such as bodily integrity? I mean, it may be a relatively more consistent approach than trying to walk the line with mostly-non-physical HP in earlier edition, but the end result doesn't really tell us what actually happened; which is the whole point of using a statistical model in the first place.
Your entire approach seems to be predicted on the idea that a superficial injury from being hit by a greataxe or an oak tree is plausible. IMO, it isn't.

The only reasonable explanation as I see it, is that they weren't hit any more than is necessary for the narrative (a weapon delivering poison can be assumed to have at least scratched the target). That is unless we assume that PCs are superhuman, which every edition has summarily rejected in its description of hit points.

We roll for the outcome because in one case the attack would have hit (had the target not had sufficient hit points remaining), while in the latter case it would have missed (and therefore did not require an expenditure of HP). The narratives may be similar but the underlying mechanics are not (since in the former case you need to subtract hit points from your total). The former brings the target closer to suffering serious injury whereas the latter does not.
 

I agree that slow healing only makes sense if every attack results in physical injury, but I disagree that it causes anything to fall apart. Rather, I posit that physical injury is the only way to make sense of it all, because any other model will create significantly more problems than it can solve.

Slow healing only makes sense if every attack results in physical injury. Which works fine in GURPS, WFRP, Rolemaster, the World of Darkness, and arguably even Fate. But D&D has never had slow healing. You heal your "wounds" in AD&D on a similar timescale to recovering from a stiff athletic competion - days, up to a month. And they don't impede you in anything other than your ability to take further hits, meaning they are less of a problem than fatigue.

Calling AD&D healing slow is like calling a 1975 Ford Pinto slow. I mean yes it might take 15 seconds to go from 0-60 but it is still a car rather than a horse or walking. Just because it gets left in the dust by a Ford GT doesn't mean that it's remotely on the scale of human muscle power.

I mean, I hope you can see why that is not a terribly satisfying narrative. If the difference between a "hit" and a "miss" is the amount of effort they had to expend while dodging, then why are we even rolling when the outcome is that they dodge either way?

Fate and Blades in the Dark both use stress to soak consequences. The initial roll is to find out whether you need to burn stress, and if so how much. This works more or less equivalently mechanically to any edition of D&D. Stress is recovered easily in down time, again more or less equivalently to AD&D.

The difference with those systems comes when you either run out of stress or choose not to take any more because you'll need it for bigger things. In those cases you take actual injuries.

For that matter from memory WFRP works much the same way. Your hit points are fine and easily recoverable but use langauge and mechanics fairly like D&D. Unless it's a critical hit it's nothing serious. But if it's a critical hit or if it's any hit when you have run out of hit points you take actual lasting injury that may be permanent.

Why are we bothering with such a complex system for measuring intangibles, but completely ignoring substantial metrics such as bodily integrity?

Because D&D is a game that doesn't attempt to model the real world at a personal level. And people don't find long term recovery mechanics to be fun unless they want an acutally gritty game (which D&D isn't in any edition, and this power fantasy has always been part of the point). D&D is a hacked tabletop wargame and the only editions that did anything remotely resembling trying to model anything like the real world were 3.0 and 3.5. (The one exception is that 4e was a rebuilt hacked modern board game rather than being a hacked 1970s tabletop wargame).
 

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