D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

[Eric V]

Using minions requires me to accept that the same creature is represented different ways depending on who it's facing. High level minions are particularly brain-breaking that way. I'd rather just use a die roller for groups.

It's a game: things are always dependent on the PCs.

Besides, variation in the stats of, say an ogre makes way more sense than every single ogre in the world having the same stats.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a game: things are always dependent on the PCs.

Besides, variation in the stats of, say an ogre makes way more sense than every single ogre in the world having the same stats.

There are a bunch of different statblocks for ogres, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying literally the same ogre.

 

[Eric V]

There are a bunch of different statblocks for ogres, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying literally the same ogre.

In the MM?

PCs get stronger over time...the ogre can't?

 

[Micah Sweet]

In the MM?

PCs get stronger over time...the ogre can't?

They have produced several statblocks for ogres (most notably in either Volo's or Mordenkainen's I believe) for 5th ed. Third parties have produced many more. But in 4th ed, the same creature can be represented by one of several statblocks, from boss to elite to standard to minion, based entirely on the level of the PCs. He's an elite one day, and a minion to higher level characters the next. This is a level of gamism that snaps my personal reality suspenders. Obviously, YMMV

 

[Campbell]

Not super big on minions anymore. For nameless multitudes I prefer gang/mob/swarm/battle group style mechanics that combine many enemies into one stat block. I think that matches the feel of things better. I am also a pretty big fan of games like Pathfinder 2 where higher level enemies naturally feel like bosses and lower level enemies naturally feel like minions because of the way scaling works.

 

[Teemu]

5e's bounded accuracy achieves the same thing without needing four different statlines for the same creature.

Not really. You can’t use young dragons as minions at tier 4 without bogging down the game. Or how about using hezrous and chasmes in numbers? Check the auras; players are expected to roll several saves at once, plus you’re supposed to keep track of who saved against which demon. The monsters aren’t working well as weaker foes when you need several of them. Also, ”minions” in 5e aren’t as threatening because a good area spell takes them out even when the minions succeed on the save.

There is clearly a difference between the 4e and 5e approaches, and the 4e approach has produced more enjoyable results in my games.

And while 4e creatures lack an ”inherent” level like 5e or older editions creatures, they actually do have an inherent power metric: their XP value. You can represent the XP value in different ways, from minion to solo.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not really. You can’t use young dragons as minions at tier 4 without bogging down the game. Or how about using hezrous and chasmes in numbers? Check the auras; players are expected to roll several saves at once, plus you’re supposed to keep track of who saved against which demon. The monsters aren’t working well as weaker foes when you need several of them. Also, ”minions” in 5e aren’t as threatening because a good area spell takes them out even when the minions succeed on the save.

There is clearly a difference between the 4e and 5e approaches, and the 4e approach has produced more enjoyable results in my games.

And while 4e creatures lack an ”inherent” level like 5e or older editions creatures, they actually do have an inherent power metric: their XP value. You can represent the XP value in different ways, from minion to solo.

As I've said, I had a good time with 4e, and I'm glad people still enjoy it, and I really wish it could be actively supported in parallel, like the old days with Basic and AD&D. It just stopped working for me after a while.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

5e's bounded accuracy achieves the same thing without needing four different statlines for the same creature.

It absolutely does not.

 

[Undrave]

It's a game: things are always dependent on the PCs.

Besides, variation in the stats of, say an ogre makes way more sense than every single ogre in the world having the same stats.

Sssh, you're not supposed to call it a 'game'

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They have produced several statblocks for ogres (most notably in either Volo's or Mordenkainen's I believe) for 5th ed. Third parties have produced many more. But in 4th ed, the same creature can be represented by one of several statblocks, from boss to elite to standard to minion, based entirely on the level of the PCs. He's an elite one day, and a minion to higher level characters the next. This is a level of gamism that snaps my personal reality suspenders. Obviously, YMMV

I’ll never understand this particular snapping of reality suspenders. (love that phrase)

Why should the stats of the NPC remain the same? Why do the stats of the NPC matter? They’re mechanics to represent what the NPC can do when interacting with the PCs.

I just...it doesn’t grok.