D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

[Micah Sweet]

Agreed.

IME, it isn’t that 4e “requires” 4 stat blocks for the same critter, it’s that 4e has NPC crafting mechanics such that you can craft a unique stat block for that creature for every fight. That’s a good thing.

I'm definitely more on the physics side, but more because I don't like the idea of it being a UI rather than because I think any version of D&D is actually a good physics simulator.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

But then it is blatantly clear that those mechanics do not represent anything 'real'. Whether this bothers you or not is a matter of personal taste, but it definitely massively bugs some people. This fundamental difference in how the purpose of the game mechanics is understood was basically in the core of 97.5% of 4e flame wars. People never agreed about it then and they won't now.

Sure, it’s funny though, because it’s not like any edition of D&D does a remotely good job of the mechanics representing anything real. 4e just presented the mechanics as not trying to pretend.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure, it’s funny though, because it’s not like any edition of D&D does a remotely good job of the mechanics representing anything real. 4e just presented the mechanics as not trying to pretend.

I mean if I wanted a solid physics engine, I wouldn't be playing D&D in the first place. But there still is a difference between abstraction and disassociation and 4e goes way too strongly towards the latter for my liking.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean if I wanted a solid physics engine, I wouldn't be playing D&D in the first place. But there still is a difference between abstraction and disassociation and 4e goes way too strongly towards the latter for my liking.

I'd say it's not so much a difference between abstraction and disassociation so much as they are not the same category of thing. Abstraction either causes disassociation or it doesn't.

Either way, 4e healing isn't any more abstract than 5e healing, and makes more sense to a lot of us than previous edition healing.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'd say it's not so much a difference between abstraction and disassociation so much as they are not the same category of thing. Abstraction either causes disassociation or it doesn't.

Either way, 4e healing isn't any more abstract than 5e healing, and makes more sense to a lot of us than previous edition healing.

Perhaps. I feel that 5e healing is a tad more grounded and quite a bit if you apply some optional rules from DMG. But yeah, not a colossal difference. However representing the same creature with a different stablock depending on who it is fighting is massively disassociated.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Perhaps. I feel that 5e healing is a tad more grounded and quite a bit if you apply some optional rules from DMG. But yeah, not a colossal difference. However representing the same creature with a different stablock depending on who it is fighting is massively disassociated.

Well, no. It's abstract. You find the results disassociating, but others don't. It's just abstract.

For me, the same ogre having exactly the same stats is disassociating, while having the ogre behave mechanically in a way that is appropriate to the scene helps me immerse more fully.

It's just a matter of whether you expect the abstractions to be hidden or not.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, no. It's abstract. You find the results disassociating, but others don't. It's just abstract.

For me, the same ogre having exactly the same stats is disassociating, while having the ogre behave mechanically in a way that is appropriate to the scene helps me immerse more fully.

It's just a matter of whether you expect the abstractions to be hidden or not.

You're not making sense to me. If you literally cannot answer the question 'what are the stats of Bill the Orge' then it definitely is more disassociated than if you unambiguously can. By having four floating, context dependent datasheets for Bill means you have disassociated those mechanics from him in very literal and explicit sense.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Chimpanzees are significantly smaller than adult humans, yet they are mind-blowingly stronger than a human. Just because something is small doesn't mean it can't be strong. If it has the capacity to effectively use deadly weapons (which act as a force multiplier) then it is even more dangerous. A goblin or kobold does not necessarily have the same muscle strength as a human relative to their size.

We have stats for baboons, at least in certain editions. They don't deal only 1 damage. A chimp is stronger than a baboon, so it would deal even more damage.

However, I was clearly talking about a toddler with a stick.

And I'm talking about creatures that actually deal 1 damage, which is the only number that matters in any discussion of minions.

If the soldier had 8 HP instead of 1, and the PC fighting him had an 8 damage minimum (roll of 1 + 5 attribute mod + 2 sneak attack dice) then there's no discernable difference between whether he's a minion or just a low HP creature. He dies from one hit either way. You're suggesting that it's somehow problematic if he was a minion in this hypothetical, despite the outcomes being identical?

If he was a minion, he never would have survived long enough to encounter the PC in the first place, especially while training to become a soldier. He would have suffered some injury at some point, of sufficient severity that a finite number of them would result in death. And if he's a minion, then any amount of quantifiable damage will instantly result in irrevocable death. Minions are entirely incapable of being non-fatally wounded, or of healing, or of being beaten into unconscious (with the possible exception of a deliberate attack by someone attempting to spare their life).

If we're only concerned with this soldier's interaction with the PC, then 1hp is sufficiently similar to 8hp iff the PC cannot possibly deal less than 8 damage with a hit, which is never guaranteed to be the case. It's certainly possible for almost any PC to deal less than 8 damage with an attack, regardless of level. Maybe they're throwing a rock. Maybe they're de-buffed, or the minions are buffed, or other situational modifiers are in effect.

Moreover, if we do pretend that it's reasonable to assume any PC of a given level will deal at least 8 damage with an attack, then why not model those minions as having 8hp? It would solve almost every complaint, while being virtually identical in play (according to your argument). The only possible explanation I can see is that they were intentionally trying to alienate any potential player who wanted to take the game seriously; in which case, mission accomplished.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You're not making sense to me. If you literally cannot answer the question 'what are the stats of Bill the Orge' then it definitely is more disassociated than if you unambiguously can. By having four floating, context dependent datasheets for Bill means you have disassociated those mechanics from him in very literal and explicit sense.

No, you’ve abstracted them, and instead said, “Bill the Ogre is a strong ogre that leads his small band of ogres, isn’t very bright but has a keen eye for hierarchies of power, and fights with a crude shield made of tree bark and a long stone club.” and then let you decide how to represent that mechanically in a given situation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No, you’ve abstracted them, and instead said, “Bill the Ogre is a strong ogre that leads his small band of ogres, isn’t very bright but has a keen eye for hierarchies of power, and fights with a crude shield made of tree bark and a long stone club.” and then let you decide how to represent that mechanically in a given situation.

If the same ogre is abstracted differently depending on the situation that is massively disassociated. Stop trying to obfuscate things.