D&D General 4e Healing was the best D&D healing

Fanaelialae

Legend
Whatever it was that caused the black eye, did not necessarily inflict HP damage. Or if it did, because it was forceful enough that a reasonable number of repetitions would result in death, then the black eye is not the extent of the injury.

I'm getting sick of all these strawmen. If you can't stand the idea that the game mechanics might actually represent anything, then fine. Just stop trying to pretend that minions are remotely like the same level of abstraction as anything that came before or after. That's not an argument that anyone could ever win.
So a black eye might or might not be damage? But 1 damage being variable in the fiction depending on how many HP the target has remaining is unreasonable?

I'm not pretending. A point of damage can kill a 100 HP creature who's taken 99 damage, or a 10 HP creature who's taken 9 damage, or a 2 HP creature who's taken 1 damage, or a creature with 1 HP that is at full health. All of those characters also function at 100% efficiency in terms of doing things. Those are the rules, and have been in every edition.

The implications of the ruleset are obvious. You're free to ignore them, but then you end up with ridiculous scenarios like a fighter who dies from tripping on a hill because he got into a scuffle earlier in the day. You're the one who said a fighter with one HP might die tripping on a hill, not me.
 

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The implications of the ruleset are obvious. You're free to ignore them, but then you end up with ridiculous scenarios like a fighter who dies from tripping on a hill because he got into a scuffle earlier in the day. You're the one who said a fighter with one HP might die tripping on a hill, not me.
There's nothing remotely ridiculous about someone dying from a fall, when acting recklessly, after they've been beaten nearly to death. What's ridiculous is claiming that someone who has 1hp remaining is perfectly healthy. Perfectly healthy people don't die from the sorts of things that deal 1 damage.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
There's nothing remotely ridiculous about someone dying from a fall, when acting recklessly, after they've been beaten nearly to death. What's ridiculous is claiming that someone who has 1hp remaining is perfectly healthy. Perfectly healthy people don't die from the sorts of things that deal 1 damage.
Someone who has nearly been beaten to death does not function at 100% efficiency. A character can perform any task equally well at full HP as at 1 HP. Therefore, logically, a character at 1 HP cannot possibly have been nearly beaten to death.

You're free to interpret the rules as you like, of course.
 

Someone who has nearly been beaten to death does not function at 100% efficiency. A character can perform any task equally well at full HP as at 1 HP. Therefore, logically, a character at 1 HP cannot possibly have been nearly beaten to death.
Definitionally, someone with 1 HP is nearly dead. While it might be counter-intuitive or un-realistic for such a person to function at 100% efficiency, it isn't illogical.

And if you don't like what the rules are saying, you're free to change them, or add to them. What you can't do is claim that they don't mean what they mean. At least, not if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Definitionally, someone with 1 HP is nearly dead. While it might be counter-intuitive or un-realistic for such a person to function at 100% efficiency, it isn't illogical.

And if you don't like what the rules are saying, you're free to change them, or add to them. What you can't do is claim that they don't mean what they mean. At least, not if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
A person who is nearly dead is not capable of doing everything equally well as when they are perfectly healthy. That's simple logic.

A creature at one hit point is reasonably fine. However, the next attack that hits them and deals damage will be potentially fatal, even if it only deals one point of damage. The fictional depiction of a point of damage is different depending on whether the target is at 1 HP or >1 HP. A person at 1 HP is not nearly dead or seriously injured, and functions as such within the rules.

A character can be killed by a single attack that hits them, provided it reduces them to 0. For someone with 10 hp, it takes 10 damage. For someone with 1 hp, it takes 1 damage. A creature being killed by a single attack is a reasonable result, as long as the attack is lethal (being stabbed in the heart rather than scratched on the arm).

I don't need to change the rules. My interpretation produces reasonable and consistent results within the rules.
 

Undrave

Legend
Definitionally, someone with 1 HP is nearly dead. While it might be counter-intuitive or un-realistic for such a person to function at 100% efficiency, it isn't illogical.

And if you don't like what the rules are saying, you're free to change them, or add to them. What you can't do is claim that they don't mean what they mean. At least, not if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
A person who is nearly dead is not capable of doing everything equally well as when they are perfectly healthy. That's simple logic.

A creature at one hit point is reasonably fine. However, the next attack that hits them and deals damage will be potentially fatal, even if it only deals one point of damage. The fictional depiction of a point of damage is different depending on whether the target is at 1 HP or >1 HP. A person at 1 HP is not nearly dead or seriously injured, and functions as such within the rules.

A character can be killed by a single attack that hits them, provided it reduces them to 0. For someone with 10 hp, it takes 10 damage. For someone with 1 hp, it takes 1 damage. A creature being killed by a single attack is a reasonable result, as long as the attack is lethal (being stabbed in the heart rather than scratched on the arm).

I don't need to change the rules. My interpretation produces reasonable and consistent results within the rules.

Guys...

Here's a representation of what 1 HP of damage looks like.

 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
A person who is nearly dead is not capable of doing everything equally well as when they are perfectly healthy. That's simple logic.
Agreed.

However it's something the game has, sadly, never modelled very well at all.

A creature at one hit point is reasonably fine. However, the next attack that hits them and deals damage will be potentially fatal, even if it only deals one point of damage. The fictional depiction of a point of damage is different depending on whether the target is at 1 HP or >1 HP. A person at 1 HP is not nearly dead or seriously injured, and functions as such within the rules.
Case in point.

A character at 1 hit point, unless one is all it ever has (which I don't think been possible since 1e), is about as close to being dead as it can be without in fact being dead; and thus should not be capable of doing everything as well as when it's at full health. But the game's never gone into this much detail, leaving us with a much-too-binary system of you're either fully functional or you're dead.

The 1e-2e solution of death at -10 and the area between 0 and -9 being a range of lessened functionality (or just unconsciousness, but even that's still too binary) actually solves a surprising number of these headaches. But for some reason 5e doesn't want to track negative hit points, and so out the window goes that design opportunity. Couple this binary on-off situation with a) an inability to go below zero and b) in-combat ranged healing and you've got Whack-A-Mole, which is truly ridiculous.

A character can be killed by a single attack that hits them, provided it reduces them to 0. For someone with 10 hp, it takes 10 damage. For someone with 1 hp, it takes 1 damage. A creature being killed by a single attack is a reasonable result, as long as the attack is lethal (being stabbed in the heart rather than scratched on the arm).

I don't need to change the rules. My interpretation produces reasonable and consistent results within the rules.
I'm sure it does, and all's well as far as it goes.

The problem is it's the rules themselves surrounding this that need help; and my point is they do need to be changed. Not just death-and-dying rules but the whole resting/healing/recovery paradigm, never mind the relationship between hit points (as a percentage of one's maximum) and health and-or functionality.

4e - an edition I rarely praise for anyhting - was on the right path with its bloodied mechanic: go below half your max hit points and something or some things changed. There should also be changes at the 1/4 point, at the 1/10 point, and at 1 h.p. if you've 20 or more maximum; to reflect generally lowered functionality and - with some classes - increasing desperation.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Someone who has nearly been beaten to death does not function at 100% efficiency. A character can perform any task equally well at full HP as at 1 HP. Therefore, logically, a character at 1 HP cannot possibly have been nearly beaten to death.
Instead of looking at the raw number, look at the current h.p. as a fraction of the character's maximum.

Someone at 1 h.p. and whose maximum is 1 h.p. is as healthy and functional as they're ever gonna get (and one can make a fine argument for that being not very, but that's another discussion). But someone at 1 h.p. and whose maximum is 100 h.p. has been beat to rat-scrat and is, compared to normal, close to death. And this is true whether you see hit points as meat, as plot armour, as luck, or whatever: someone at 1 out of 100 is in bad shape.

Put another way, I see someone who's at 3 out of 6 as being, to an outside observer, in approximately the same condition as someone who's at 50 out of 100: they're both down about half their total.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Agreed.

However it's something the game has, sadly, never modelled very well at all.

Case in point.

A character at 1 hit point, unless one is all it ever has (which I don't think been possible since 1e), is about as close to being dead as it can be without in fact being dead; and thus should not be capable of doing everything as well as when it's at full health. But the game's never gone into this much detail, leaving us with a much-too-binary system of you're either fully functional or you're dead.

The 1e-2e solution of death at -10 and the area between 0 and -9 being a range of lessened functionality (or just unconsciousness, but even that's still too binary) actually solves a surprising number of these headaches. But for some reason 5e doesn't want to track negative hit points, and so out the window goes that design opportunity. Couple this binary on-off situation with a) an inability to go below zero and b) in-combat ranged healing and you've got Whack-A-Mole, which is truly ridiculous.

I'm sure it does, and all's well as far as it goes.

The problem is it's the rules themselves surrounding this that need help; and my point is they do need to be changed. Not just death-and-dying rules but the whole resting/healing/recovery paradigm, never mind the relationship between hit points (as a percentage of one's maximum) and health and-or functionality.

4e - an edition I rarely praise for anyhting - was on the right path with its bloodied mechanic: go below half your max hit points and something or some things changed. There should also be changes at the 1/4 point, at the 1/10 point, and at 1 h.p. if you've 20 or more maximum; to reflect generally lowered functionality and - with some classes - increasing desperation.
Instead of looking at the raw number, look at the current h.p. as a fraction of the character's maximum.

Someone at 1 h.p. and whose maximum is 1 h.p. is as healthy and functional as they're ever gonna get (and one can make a fine argument for that being not very, but that's another discussion). But someone at 1 h.p. and whose maximum is 100 h.p. has been beat to rat-scrat and is, compared to normal, close to death. And this is true whether you see hit points as meat, as plot armour, as luck, or whatever: someone at 1 out of 100 is in bad shape.

Put another way, I see someone who's at 3 out of 6 as being, to an outside observer, in approximately the same condition as someone who's at 50 out of 100: they're both down about half their total.
The fact that not only has D&D ever modeled this, but that it has not even meaningfully attempted to, suggests to me that it's more likely that it is your interpretation (that someone with 100 HP at 1 HP has been beat to rat-scrat) is not the intended one. That isn't to say that you're wrong for wanting to interpret it that way. Just that, under scrutiny, it makes no logical sense that if someone can function as well a 1 HP as 100, that they can reasonably be interpreted near death.

4e's bloodied condition is, as you say, more than most editions have done to model it, sure. However, it's clear that bloodied is not intended to represent nearly dead, as it carries no actual penalties but rather simply functions as a trigger for various abilities, both good and bad. I actually still use bloodied in my 5e games, even though it has no mechanical impact in this edition. When an attack bloodies a creature, I describe it as being bloodied by that attack in some relatively minor way, and this clues in the players that the creature is about halfway to 0. Attacks before and after (which don't take it to 0) are described as attacks that should have hit but for a last second dodge, unless they carry an effect that requires contact in which case I describe it in a minimally injurious way.

The closest I can think of actual "nearly dead" status in D&D is (I think) from 1e (I might be mistaken though). IIRC, if a character goes to 0 HP and survives, and recovers without magical healing, they are out of commission until they are able to rest for an extended period of time. Going off of memory, they can follow their allies and speak, but can't fight or otherwise use any abilities, and if they receive even a single point of damage it automatically kills them outright. Note, however, that prior to going to 0 they are fully capable at 1 hp. It is only after recovering from 0 that they are beat to rat-scrat. Which logically implies that there are at least two different ways of defining 1 HP in the fiction of 1e (or whichever edition I'm thinking of). One where you haven't gone to 0 and are mostly fine (possibly a little worse for wear, but not in any way that should meaningfully impair you), and another where you went to 0 and are beat to rat-scrat and cannot meaningfully do much (you are seriously impaired).

If you want to institute penalties at 1/2, 1/4, and 1/10, that's up to you (and your table). However, the simpler solution (IMO) is to change how you describe a character at 1 HP, in which case such rules changes (and the death spiral that usually goes hand-in-hand such changes) become unnecessary.

"Do not try and bend the spoon, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth...there is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself." -Matrix ;)

YMMV
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The fact that not only has D&D ever modeled this, but that it has not even meaningfully attempted to, suggests to me that it's more likely that it is your interpretation (that someone with 100 HP at 1 HP has been beat to rat-scrat) is not the intended one. That isn't to say that you're wrong for wanting to interpret it that way. Just that, under scrutiny, it makes no logical sense that if someone can function as well a 1 HP as 100, that they can reasonably be interpreted near death.
Exactly.

To make it make logical sense, the problem that needs solving is that they can function as well at 1 of 100 as they can at 100 of 100. (or for better comparison among characters with different h.p. totals, 1% of full vs 100% of full) This is what I was trying to get at with the idea of conditions (usually negative) kicking in at 50%, 25%, 10% and 1.

4e's bloodied condition is, as you say, more than most editions have done to model it, sure. However, it's clear that bloodied is not intended to represent nearly dead, as it carries no actual penalties but rather simply functions as a trigger for various abilities, both good and bad. I actually still use bloodied in my 5e games, even though it has no mechanical impact in this edition. When an attack bloodies a creature, I describe it as being bloodied by that attack in some relatively minor way, and this clues in the players that the creature is about halfway to 0. Attacks before and after (which don't take it to 0) are described as attacks that should have hit but for a last second dodge, unless they carry an effect that requires contact in which case I describe it in a minimally injurious way.
It's more case by case for me. A hit from a Giant is going to be described differently than a hit from a Dragon's claw - the Giant hit might send you flying across the room while the Dragon's claw might leave a nasty scratch on your armour - and you.

To me all hit points are at least a tiny bit meat (if nothing else this makes damage-based effects e.g. poison and level drain easier to grok), with the meat ratio increasing greatly as you get close to 0.

The closest I can think of actual "nearly dead" status in D&D is (I think) from 1e (I might be mistaken though). IIRC, if a character goes to 0 HP and survives, and recovers without magical healing, they are out of commission until they are able to rest for an extended period of time. Going off of memory, they can follow their allies and speak, but can't fight or otherwise use any abilities, and if they receive even a single point of damage it automatically kills them outright. Note, however, that prior to going to 0 they are fully capable at 1 hp. It is only after recovering from 0 that they are beat to rat-scrat. Which logically implies that there are at least two different ways of defining 1 HP in the fiction of 1e (or whichever edition I'm thinking of). One where you haven't gone to 0 and are mostly fine (possibly a little worse for wear, but not in any way that should meaningfully impair you), and another where you went to 0 and are beat to rat-scrat and cannot meaningfully do much (you are seriously impaired).
I think that's 1e, using the death at -3 (or -10) option.

If you want to institute penalties at 1/2, 1/4, and 1/10, that's up to you (and your table). However, the simpler solution (IMO) is to change how you describe a character at 1 HP, in which case such rules changes (and the death spiral that usually goes hand-in-hand such changes) become unnecessary.
I'd rather find a way of solving the logic problem you point out in the first bit quoted, above. The idea of having 1 hit point mean different things in the fiction if you reach that number from above or below doesn't work well for me.

The ridiculous extreme, of course, is 5e's Whack-A-Mole idiocy, where a character can be at 0 h.p. and down one round, fully functional at 1 h.p. the next round, back down to 0 the round after, repeat until you run out of either ranged-cures or opponents.

The other option, of course, is to go to a wound-vitality or body-fatigue point system. We did this ages ago and it solves a ton of problems at cost of a bit of extra complication which very soon becomes second nature.
 

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