D&D 4E 4E is too balanced - options to replace all martial dailies?

[Oldtimer]

Like I said, it doesn't make sense that the 'probability,' no matter what it is exactly, changes based on how many encounters you have in a day. It's 100% daily use with 1 encounter. 50% daily use with 2 encounters. And so on.

Only if you look at it from a deterministic and mechanistic view. You assume that the probability has an exact and measureable value beforehand.

I see it more like a quantum waveform. Only when observed does it collapse into something measurable. Like the quantum waveform, that probability exists but only at the end of particular day do we know what its value was.

It's like the probability of snow at lunch tomorrow. I know the probability exists, but have no way of fixing its value. And it can certainly have different values on two consecutive days.

 

[Frankie1969]

I don't understand why random circumstance makes no sense. I think we both feel that a daily martial power could be a manuever that requires very special circumstances. Your fighter character is trying to create them with his every move, but he needs luck on his side to get that perfect opening he needs. Luck. Random circumstance. Call it what you want. Why does that not make sense?

I didn't say random circumstance makes no sense. I said daily makes no sense for non-magical abilities. Daily is unacceptable to me as a proxy for "less often than per-encounter".

If the circumstances are random, then make it random: maybe 5 times in a game day, maybe once in a game week, and not always available at the player's whim. If the circumstances are character-controlled, then a martial ability should be usable no less often than per-encounter, but with some restricting requirement and/or a weaker effect than the current martial dailies.

The latter is my preferred option. IMO, most martial abilities should be repeatable, with appropriately moderate damage. Unusual circumstance that makes your attack more powerful? That's called a critical hit.

Hmm... now there's an alternate solution, combining random circumstance AND player control. Upon rolling a 20 attack, the player has the option to do standard crit damage, or upgrade to a daily and reroll the attack. It probably needs some adjustment, but it's workable.

 

[Frankie1969]

I would have much preferred dailies instead be limited by, say, once every 4 encounters, but alas.

"alas"??? What's up with that? Especially when you're posting in the "Fan Creations and House Rules" forum.

Game rules were made to be modded.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Only if you look at it from a deterministic and mechanistic view. You assume that the probability has an exact and measureable value beforehand.

Well, why wouldn't it? If there's a chance that 'Brute Strike' happens every time the fighter swings his sword, why does it only every happen once per day? Trying to explain it as quantum mechanics actually moves it farther way from making sense, in my eyes. And snow is governed by the weather, and science and stuff, not really a random chance. I guess you could say that the probability of brute strike decreases with amount of encounters because of the 'weather,' as in the flow of the encounters and all that, but there's no way I can accept that the 'weather' NEVER allows it to happen more than once per day.

Again, I like dailies on martial classes, but making sense isn't their strong point.

"alas"??? What's up with that? Especially when you're posting in the "Fan Creations and House Rules" forum.

Game rules were made to be modded.

Ha, yeah. In my games, it's exactly what I do. We don't usually go any more than 4 encounters in a day anyway though.

 

[jbear]

Well, you could check out the character 'Rock Lee' from Naruto. Basically he is a ninja with absoultely no illusory or special (magical) jutsu techniques. He relies on physical techniques exclusively. He has special moves though that are more difficult to pull off and still draw energy from his chakra. So he can't just spam them over and over again. The Ninjas in Naruto have a power system that could easily be related to 4e power system with at wills, encounter powers and dailies.

 

[Arlough]

Well, why wouldn't it? If there's a chance that 'Brute Strike' happens every time the fighter swings his sword, why does it only every happen once per day? Trying to explain it as quantum mechanics actually moves it farther way from making sense, in my eyes. And snow is governed by the weather, and science and stuff, not really a random chance. I guess you could say that the probability of brute strike decreases with amount of encounters because of the 'weather,' as in the flow of the encounters and all that, but there's no way I can accept that the 'weather' NEVER allows it to happen more than once per day.

Again, I like dailies on martial classes, but making sense isn't their strong point.

Ha, yeah. In my games, it's exactly what I do. We don't usually go any more than 4 encounters in a day anyway though.

That is the variable he is talking about. You don't know how many encounters you are going to have in a day, so you may never end up using a daily. If you know that you will be having only 4 encounters every day, then I am guessing that you will use every daily you have, one per encounter except for the first. If you know you can take an extended rest at any time, then you end up with the groups that have "5 minute days" where they blow all their dailies in the first battle, and then don't want to do anything until they have them back.

On the other hand, if you know that you will have between 1 and 10 (for mathematical convenience) encounters before your next extended rest, you have a 0% - 30% chance of using one in any given encounter.

I actually encountered an issue similar to this "problem" with a group I DM'ed. The players would go out, get in battles until they were out of Daily powers (usually 4 encounters) and then return to the town to rest. Then they would go on about how easy the fights were that weren't at least +2 levels, and bemoan the fact that if you had an item daily, you never got to use it because elixirs counted as an item daily.
This lasted up until I put them in a situation where they had no idea when the next extended rest opportunity would arise. Suddenly, they were carefully metering their dailies and surges, and actually were glad they had multiple items with daily powers.

 

[fuzzlewump]

[MENTION=79335]Arlough[/MENTION]

Everything you are saying is correct, but I'm not sure what you're responding to. What does the problem of blowing all your dailies in the first and only combat, a problem for any classic class, martial or no, have to do with the believability/acceptability of martial dailies?

 

[Frankie1969]

Thanks much to all for the interesting conversation.

Well, you could check out the character 'Rock Lee' from Naruto. ( . . . ) He has special moves though that are more difficult to pull off and still draw energy from his chakra.

Chakra would be Ki source, not martial.

I can find plausible justification for dailies from any supernatural power source. Martial is the other case.

The players would go out, get in battles until they were out of Daily powers (usually 4 encounters) and then return to the town to rest. Then they would go on about how easy the fights were

That's a separate topic, but a good reminder. Back in the day my preferred solution was simple: if the good guys rest & regroup halfway through a dungeon, the bad guys do too. Ambushes, more concentrated defense, escape plans for the bosses, or even something like this:

"The princess? Oh, so sorry we didn't wait for you. I sacrificed her to the snake demons last night. They gave me this abyssal totem staff. Let me show you what it does." You only have to pull that once.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Whether it's purely random or a hero controlling the circumstances, the daily limit make no sense for martial powers.

You keep saying that, but you're not really justifying it in any way. We get that this is your opinion, and lots of people disagree with you. I don't think anyone will be convinced either way.

I can find plausible justification for dailies from any supernatural power source. Martial is the other case.

How is it less of a stretch when your cleric's god runs out of magic?

If I were inclined to use them, I would convert them to encounter powers with a chain of 2 preceding attacks (or other actions approved by the DM) required as buildup. The desired power is declared in advance, and the player gets a 2 turn window to use it. If they don't (by choice or unable to attack), then they need another buildup before using that power.

One of the buildup attacks must affect a combatant's position (such as any of the fighter level 1 encounter exploits in PHB). An ally's attack which moves or knocks down an opponent would be valid, or killing a specified opponent if the player can predict how the nearby opponents will move in response. The point is to exert control of the battlefield, thereby "making luck".

The problem with this is that at will and encounter powers are currently strong enough that it won't be worth taking weaker ones just to power up a daily. That goes double when there's a decent chance that by the end of your power up the foe is dead or near death anyway. The end result would be "if you take a class with the martial power source you're worse off than anyone else because of the DMs personal preferences" unless you take measures to make martial dailies a lot better, or make the requirements for a 'setup' a lot more broad.

But if you're just going to stick to essentials, then all that sort of stuff has been taken care of for you so balance wise you're fine.

You might find that your martial players get bored though (I know I would: essentials heads back to the days of martial classes doing more-or-less the same thing every round while the magical guys get all the flashy stuff). Also it rules out the entire character concept of a non-magical leader because there is no essentials warlord.

 

[Frankie1969]

You keep saying that, but you're not really justifying it in any way. We get that this is your opinion, and lots of people disagree with you. I don't think anyone will be convinced either way.

To me (and other people in the thread) it's intuitively obvious why physical abilities don't fit the "daily" keyword: because that's not how animal bodies work. I expect a semblance of realism from the parts of an RPG that correspond to reality. But you're right that debating this point isn't worthwhile.

How is it less of a stretch when your cleric's god runs out of magic?

1. Because it's MAGIC. RPG magic can operate any way the group is willing to accept.(*)
2. Insert various metaphysical justifications here, then return to #1.

(*) = Technically all RPG rules are subject to WSoD, but the parts that explicitly depart from reality have more leeway by nature.

But if you're just going to stick to essentials, then all that sort of stuff has been taken care of for you so balance wise you're fine.

Having just picked up the two Essentials Heroes books, yes, it looks that way. A big thank you to Mearls, Slavicsek & Thompson. You make D&D palatable for me.