D&D 4E 4E Leveling

[Haltherrion]

My D&D group has been playing 4E for about 10 months now, including some 4E trials we ran to try out the system. We're up to 5th level now and as a ref, I enjoy the system and feel the group has been enjoying the sessions overall.

We've had a bit of a break due to real-life issues and we had always thought we might do an out-of-game advancement so we could try out the paragon tier and maybe the epic one without spending years getting there

In the course of discussing with the players where to resume our game after a 2+ month break, one of the players observed he doesn't find 4E lends itself to very heroic play. His point is that, by design, each level is pretty incremental in its gain.

That's an aspect I actually like, especially the fact that all level 1 characters can actually contribute and survive but on reflection, I do have to admit the system seems to have a different pace to it than early D&D systems. And the design goal of giving everyone something to do does tend to wash out the differences between levels and characters.

We're going to skip ahead in game time and levels to level 12 and try out the bottom of the paragon tier for a while to see what that is like and if paragon feels materially different from mid to low heroic.

What are the more seasoned 4E players' thoughts on 4E levels and a "heroic" feel to the game? Think the group will feel different about playing level 12 rather than level 5?

Honestly at this point, I could see the game group veering away from 4E and while I think 4E has its flaws, I like most of it. I'd prefer we stick with it although if there is enough of an anti-4E current, I'd give Pathfinder a try.

Put another way, this next six months at paragon tier is probably the last trial 4E is going to get in my group. I'm taking other measures to streamline things and I can run an interesting game so I think it will come down to the system itself and not other factors.

 

[That Darn DM]

I really enjoyed the transference from Heroic to Paragon. It really felt special, like a task completed and maybe that was because the DM sprinkled it with a most excellent "escape from the underdark". I'm not sure if the actual level really felt different, but more along the lines of the actual feeling of accomplishment from moving from one level tier to the next, but I did get the feeling of taking the next step from the low levels to the mid. It might have been a placebo by that graduating adventure, but I still felt it.

Does 12 feel different than 5? Yes... but I can't really commit to it in a mechanics sort of way. I might be confused and biased on how well my DM did, but I did feel a difference and the Paragon Path did feel good.

I might be wrong, but if you didn't have as much fun with the heroic levels of the game compared to other systems, then maybe it might be good to do a change.

If it is you that are running it, I would definitely and try to use the short-term goal of the tier move to your advantage. Just the feeling of change, even if it isn't all there, is a good way to go to evoke the players.

Another thing is, that I do agree with R.A. Salvatore on the matter of 1st and 4th edition: That to make the game great for first, you need a really good DM. To make the game great in 4th, you need really good players. I think much of the power that was reserved for 1e is now in the player's hands and it is every players responsibility to make the game great (Yeah, I know. You can say that about any game).

 

[Riastlin]

My party just closed out the Heroic tier at the end of the last session.

I'm not certain what you mean by "lending itself to heroic play"; however, I can tell you that there is a definite shift in the overall power of the party as they level up. In my experience, 5th level is when the party really starts to grow in power. At 5th they each get a second daily attack power, will all have at least 3 feats, should have a nice assortment of magic items, etc.

The daily powers (at least in heroic tier) are what really drive the PCs power. At 10th level for instance, a party of 5 PCs will have 15 Daily powers per day. Even if they use 3 dailies per encounter, they still have enough for 5 encounters before they run out. While at earlier levels the PCs will hoard their dailies for that big "boss" fight, there's no longer the need to do that by the end of the tier. In fact, doing so is likely counter-productive. Dailies start getting used as much to preserve healing surges as anything. Its why they can finally start doing 4, 5, or even 6 encounters in a day without too much trouble.

Going into Paragon will really add to that as they get a host of abilities, powers, and feats the first two levels.

As for the rest of the feel of "heroicness", I think a lot of that will depend upon the DM. The idea in general is that in Heroic tier, you do a lot more of the standard "dungeon crawls". The party is essentially a bunch of adventurers for hire. But as they approach Paragon tier, they are starting to make a name for themselves, and should no longer be just another group of lackeys. Dukes, mayors, nobles, etc. will no longer look to just hire the PCs, but will actually be turning to them for advice. By Paragon, the party should really be a "mover and shaker" in the world, and in epic, they've moved on to being a cosmic force.

Put another way, in Heroic tier, the party is trying to save the region. In Paragon tier, they are saving the world. In epic tier, they are saving all of creation. That's obviously a simplification, but you get the idea. The point though is to start to shift the party along those lines during the tier. Let them know that they are making a name for themselves. The guards are now showing the respect and admiration rather than disdain. The mayor who hires them may still think he's their "better" but he is certainly going to be more respectful and he definitely wants "Them" for the job, and not just any adventurers. The PCs get called into the war room to discuss the situation, etc.

Ultimately, 4th Edition, like any edition or game, is what you make of it. The growth in power may be a bit gradual at times, but at least it is consistent. You get something at every level. That can't be overstated. Every level means something. Sure, some levels are a little more meaningful than others (personally I think going from 10th to 11th is the biggest jump in the game), but every level gives the PCs some candy. There are no more "I win" buttons (at least mostly), but the flip side to that is that the combats become more cinematic if you want them to be. I suppose that could be their problem. Powers are not what they used to be, but the PCs are still serious bad arses.

Finally, don't be afraid to occasionally throw a low level fight at them to show them how far they've come. Chris Perkins' article last week on the DnD site talked about how he threw goblins at his epic level party. The goblins were all heroic level. The point was to allow the players to see how far their characters had come to that point (while also giving a little story on the side). What would have been a difficult fight previously, was suddenly fairly easy (while still managing to provide some danger).

 

[giant.robot]

The move from heroic tier to paragon tier in 4E simply feels a lot different than going from level 10 to 11 in 3E/Pathfinder. In 3E games this was the point where magic users really start skyrocketing in power leaving the martial fighters behind. In all the long running 3E games I've ever played going past 10th level was the point the game started breaking down. The mechanics and bookkeeping began to pile up for both players and DMs and while the stories were getting more involved and larger in scope it became a lot less fun for us to actually run the games.

With the 4E games where my groups moved into the paragon tier everyone felt more capable and powerful but the bookkeeping didn't really increase. Some abilities became more complicated but the gameplay didn't feel all that different from lower levels. One half of the party didn't eclipse the other half in power level so when more difficult challenges were thrown at the party everyone had something to contribute.

 

[samursus]

There is a noticeable jump in power around 11-12th level... you get all kinds of extra Paragon path abilities, +1 to all ability scores, extra feat at 11th lvl, access to Paragon feats. The synergy effectiveness at these levels can start to get pretty awesome/crazy. I have been in combats where the DM is left with his jaw hanging and all the monsters dead on the ground. I almost guarantee going from 5th to 12th level, the DM will underestimate the deadliness of the party. So as a DM, get to know your monsters tactics well.

These are the levels where build concepts (charging, teleporting, fire damage, polearm etc) really start to shine with enough feats and magic items to make them work.

 

[Dedekind]

With respect to power, Paragon feels much different. I don't hoard my dailies, because I have multiple options. And I feel like my character is much more different from everybody else's character. Maybe the roles feel more distinct after you get more powers and feats?

With respect to pure mechanics, the complexity is higher. I've gone 1-13 and didn't have much issue with it. But when I started a character at 11, it was difficult to get my head around all the options. Throw in more condition tracking and your players may find it better to have got to Paragon tier the old fashioned way.

My group has discussed this and we kinda feel like 5th level is the point where we really can get the best feel for our characters. Kind of like a sports car, you have to "drive" your character a while before you start adding performance enhancing extras.

All in my opinion, of course...

 

[Haltherrion]

I'm not certain what you mean by "lending itself to heroic play"; however, I can tell you that there is a definite shift in the overall power of the party as they level up. In my experience, 5th level is when the party really starts to grow in power. At 5th they each get a second daily attack power, will all have at least 3 feats, should have a nice assortment of magic items, etc.

That's my player's comment not mine but I think he feels the incrementalism and the balance across classes tend to wash out the high points. I tend to look at it from a different point of view: the capabilities of even low level characters plus the smoother "wear out" of a character over the game day (you just lose your dailies) make for a lot more heroism.

You mention tossing low level encounters at the PCs to demonstrate how far they have come. I like that; think I'll restart the game with a mass of low levels that they can wade through. It should fit pretty well. We quit with the party heading deep underground to try to deal with a shadow dragon threat that was about to burst onto the world. I'm going to have the out of game period spent lost in the underworld (it's a big underworld) and we'll pick up with their return to the surface. Might be fun to have them fight their way out through some former foes that gave them a lot grief at 5th level. Not quite level 1 goblins but should be more satisfying for having struggled with them at lower levels.

In general, with 4E I've really come to appreciate the lower level encounters. They are still fun, they run a lot faster and they help balance out the session. In our pre-4E games we had gravitated towards a lot of large, knock down fights. That doesn't fit the 4E daily powers as well but also those fights just take a lot of time. A mix of easier and challenging fights seems to fit the 4E design goals better and I like the way the sessions play.

Thanks for the comments, good stuff.

 

[Haltherrion]

With the 4E games where my groups moved into the paragon tier everyone felt more capable and powerful but the bookkeeping didn't really increase. Some abilities became more complicated but the gameplay didn't feel all that different from lower levels. One half of the party didn't eclipse the other half in power level so when more difficult challenges were thrown at the party everyone had something to contribute.

Excellent point on the bookkeeping. We haven't played at this point yet obviously but I wonder if that is going to be 4E's saving grace. While I always liked casters and played a number well past level 10 in 3.0 and 3.5, the bookkeeping got absurd. It was especially crazy with my epic 3.0 magic user where you could stack metamagics. Had silly tables on my character sheet for how to power up all sorts of spells.

All the other comments have been quite useful but I bet the bookkeeping comment is what keeps the group in 4E. Thanks for highlighting that.

 

[Haltherrion]

With respect to pure mechanics, the complexity is higher. I've gone 1-13 and didn't have much issue with it. But when I started a character at 11, it was difficult to get my head around all the options. Throw in more condition tracking and your players may find it better to have got to Paragon tier the old fashioned way.

Good points and I may regret it but we're a very seasoned group (this group has been together 16 years and we've all played for much longer). You may be right and I may regret the leap but given the hit to momentum by the unanticipated break and the unease about 4E, I think a jump straight to higher levels is worth it. I might try level 10 instead of 12 so they can experience the actual paragon step but taking a page from an earlier suggestion on the thread, I think I'm going to throw the dread "Lubgrubbers" after them first session

These creatures were a challenge for them at levels 4-5 but should be a cakewalk now. Since those are some of the last things they fought, it should help calibrate their sense of their characters plus as an "easy" encounter, it should also give both players and me some ramp time at the new power level.

Not knocking your suggestion, it's sensible but between a combination of trying to meet the particular group's needs, our earlier plans to skip around on levels, and sheer cussedness , I think we're going to start in the paragon tier.

 

[eriktheguy]

In my campaign, I awarded the party when they completed a major plane spanning mission with a jump straight to level 11 from level 8.
When they arrived back in Sigil, there were less people pushing them around and more people offering them jobs, trying to get their attention, and trying to get them to join factions. It's going well. Some of the players are already talking about forming new factions or trying to do things in the planes.
It was a tangible feeling and they enjoyed it. The fact that they really ran with it helped, so I guess having good player in 4e is important.