D&D 4E 4E Liker - anything you worry about?

[TerraDave]

Short Version:

Default World: I don't need it, and probably you don't either, and nobody needs so much of it in the PHB. I know the makers of 4E know that many of us don't need it or may not even want it (I have it from the horses' mouths), and yet we are still getting it.

Is it really that easy?: Like many others, I wonder how easy this will be at higher levels. 4+ starting powers, one new one per level, one feat every other level...seems like a lot to keep track of, no matter what is coming from the horses' mouths.

And thats it. Oh, I may tweak a thing or two not related to those, but otherwise I am pretty happy with what we have seen so far.

The default world is going from fear to confirmed anoyance. Too many powers is something I am less worried about, now that we have seen the progression. And it seems pretty clear that it will be simpler then 3.5 in a number of ways.

New Fear: Typos and Errata. There seems to have been changes right up to sending the book off to the printers. There will be errors. Its a question of how many.

 

[Keenath]

New races. I am not sure how useful the new races would be in comparison to the previous editions' niche races (gnomes and half-orcs). I don't like gnomes, but I do like half-orcs; but my real concern is how useful the new races would be and how easy they would be to integrate into existing game-worlds. The same goes to the new core-book classes.

I can almost guarantee that the new races will be much more useful than the half-orc, and if they ever provide a player race half-orc, he'll be more useful than the 3.x half-orc too.

I fear class ability/power bloat, meaning that ...creating new classes would involve significant work.

It's already significant work to make a decent new class. It's making a lousy one that's easy. (This isn't a slam on any particular author. The Samurai stands out in my mind as a lousy but easy official class -- it used almost all off-the-shelf parts.)

On the other hand, the increased options and multiclassing probably mean you'll have a lot easier time fitting your concept into one of the standard classes rather than either having a bad fit or making your own.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

Forced to use the grid: While it makes sense from a marketing standpoint, I’ve never been in favor of it. Some are saying 4e can be done that way – I worry my players will feel slighted that some of their move/shift/slide powers won’t be as effective off the grid. However, that’s true for the monsters as well.

Modifiers: I fail to see the justification in removing spell durations for ‘ease of play’ and then adding in dozens of small modifiers and conditions that may or may not last more than a round.

Cluttered Table: Battle grids, status markers, power cards… seems less like D&D, more like Warhammer Quest.

Homogeny: Will all the classes being equal in combat viability, skills and utility powers [calls for speculation] make them only distinguishable by their flavor text (i.e. power source).

Power Creep: We all know what this is.

The Art: *sighs* more dungeon-punk (although it is a little better than 3e) I guess it will be hours in the ‘Art of Dragon Magazine’ and source books past looking for visual references for my players for another eight years.

The Neutered my Spell book: What if I don’t want to play a blasty-wizard…

 

[That One Guy]

What I am actually most afraid of... how will Order of the Stick handle 4e? Has that been addressed anywhere?

 

[Keenath]

Modifiers: I fail to see the justification in removing spell durations for ‘ease of play’ and then adding in dozens of small modifiers and conditions that may or may not last more than a round.

Because "one turn" or "encounter" are easier to follow than "6 rounds" and "oh yeah, I forgot to turn the counter die". The point is to make most powers one round, where it's on, and then it's off, and no questions.

The Art: *sighs* more dungeon-punk (although it is a little better than 3e)

Ah... I'm at a loss. I don't see dungeonpunk here. Normally dungeonpunk has a gritty, dirty feel and magic that's indistinguishable from technology. Not just pulpy airships, but element-powered motorcycles, crystal-ball databases, and so on.

Anyway, -punk anything means the PCs are usually poor and fighting ineffectually against an overwhelming power structure, which doesn't cover D&D at all unless you're playing in some sections of Eberron or Darksun. That's what makes it "punk", the whole dystopian, dehumanized, "fight the power" sort of thing.

What did you actually mean here? Are you complaining about having lots of big shiny fire blasts and lightning bolts in the art? Do you dislike having action in the art? What is it?

The Neutered my Spell book: What if I don’t want to play a blasty-wizard…

Then you wait for the PHB2 and play an Enchanter or an Illusionist or a Bard or a ...

Sheesh, everyone wants everything right up front...

 

[Saeviomagy]

I fear that 4e will kill off my urge to do a D&D-style wild talents game.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Fear: the 3 cores per year paradigm will hold and PHB V and DMG V will be out before we've explored PHB III and DMG II. And they will be lame.

No fears about a Monster book per year - bring it.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

Because "one turn" or "encounter" are easier to follow than "6 rounds" and "oh yeah, I forgot to turn the counter die". The point is to make most powers one round, where it's on, and then it's off, and no questions.

Except that not every effect is off, at the end of a turn necessarilty (e.g. if a save is failed.) So we have three or four floating effects and buffs that modify certain attack rolls and genuflect to saves. I'm not making a point to say that this is terrible, but I don't understand the justification of 'easier'. It doesn't seem easier to me to roll one save and have an effect last for six rounds vs. an effect that lasts indefinitely and requires a save every round. One could just as easily forget ongoing damage to the hobgoblin warcaster as he might to turn the spell counter for bless.

Ah... I'm at a loss. I don't see dungeonpunk here. Normally dungeonpunk has a gritty, dirty feel and magic that's indistinguishable from technology. Not just pulpy airships, but element-powered motorcycles, crystal-ball databases, and so on.

Anyway, -punk anything means the PCs are usually poor and fighting ineffectually against an overwhelming power structure, which doesn't cover D&D at all unless you're playing in some sections of Eberron or Darksun. That's what makes it "punk", the whole dystopian, dehumanized, "fight the power" sort of thing.

What did you actually mean here? Are you complaining about having lots of big shiny fire blasts and lightning bolts in the art? Do you dislike having action in the art? What is it?

I did not coin the term 'dungeon punk' but it seems a fair label for a genre of art that has so far distanced itself from classic fantasy. No, it's not the action in the art to which I object, but the excessive amounts of dungeon-bling on every character from spikes on their bracers to shureikens [sp?] dangling from their watch-fobs. Many of the pieces look like they were developed for Final Fantasy or are from an anime cartoon. However, I'm not making the point that all the art is terrible; much of it isn't bad, but little of it is inspiring. I prefer a variety of styles to my D&D art.

Then you wait for the PHB2 and play an Enchanter or an Illusionist or a Bard or a ...

Sheesh, everyone wants everything right up front...

I think it's a fair criticism that in editions past, in one book there were eight options for a wizard and now we have to wait a year just to get maybe get a second one and that, at least for now, all wizards will be 'Tim'.

 

[Shades of Green]

I can almost guarantee that the new races will be much more useful than the half-orc, and if they ever provide a player race half-orc, he'll be more useful than the 3.x half-orc too.

Hmmm... But how easy would they be to integrate into an existing game-world or even into a new one? Do they have clear niches (unlike the Gnome which was a bit into the Halfling's niche, a bit into the Dwarf's niche and a bit into the Elf's niche)?

It's already significant work to make a decent new class. It's making a lousy one that's easy. (This isn't a slam on any particular author. The Samurai stands out in my mind as a lousy but easy official class -- it used almost all off-the-shelf parts.)

On the other hand, the increased options and multiclassing probably mean you'll have a lot easier time fitting your concept into one of the standard classes rather than either having a bad fit or making your own.

Great to hear that - at least one of my fears got alleviated.

EDIT: New Fears:

I fear the game-world and suspension-of-disbelief implications of the vastly increased number of spells cast by a spellcaster per day. A Cleric could heal twice per encounter; but outside of an encounter/battle/dungeon, how much could a cleric - say, the town's resident cleric - heal?

I fear that the new way attack spells are handled - that is, cast at will and having damage similar to a weapon with a bonus to damage based on INT/WIS/CHA (in the same way that a Fighter gets a bonus for STR) - would make the Fighter, the Wizard and the Cleric less unique in comparison to each other. Everyone attacks causes damage like a fighter, after all...

I fear that many of the cooler non-combat-related spells which are great for use when dungeoneering, travelling the wilderness or even between adventures would be removed or curtailed in favor of combat-related spells.

I fear that long-term implications and effects - such as level drain, disease and poison - would be curtailed and/or limited to the duration of the encounter/combat.

I fear that small parties (1-2 players instead of 3-5) would be harder to pull off in 4E.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What I am actually most afraid of... how will Order of the Stick handle 4e? Has that been addressed anywhere?

I think it will stay 3E.

I think that's also for the better - The system-related jokes are not as prevalent as in the beginning, but they still exist, and switching to 4E changes too much. I could see it switching to Pathfinder a lot easier .

I'd love to see a new stick-figure webcomic with Rich's quality mocking 4E rules. But I am happy with what I've got.