D&D 4E 4E Liker - anything you worry about?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Often enough, we read criticism on 4E from people that mostly dislike it. It often comes down to the same points repeated, and us 4E likers have to jump in and defend what we like (or so we believe ).

But this thread is a chance for those that like most aspects of 4E to describe the stuff they still worry about.
Changes going to far? Changes going not far enough? Weaknesses in the design assumptions? Drawbacks we'd prefer to avoid?

Some random silly stuff:

Classes not flexible enough. For instance, my opinion of 4e went from 90% to 75% after seeing the Rogue preview. This has me worried the ranger will only be able to use two combat styles.

Int doesn't affect skills, new stat order, and Con used inappropriately. (Do you really use Con to resist bull rushes and grapples?)

You can only trip once per combat. Yes, I understand that's more balanced, and 3.x trip was overpowered, but there has to be another way. Preferably one that makes sense.

Combat options seemed kind of weird. Confusing. Weird numbers. This is probably just something that takes getting used to and I'll be delighted when it comes out. Also there were reports on too much bonus and mark management in combat, though that could be the inexperience talking.

Magic missile requires an attack roll. Why? *Sniff*

This doesn't counteract the mountain of good stuff. I love the new ranger's options, for instance. This is literally the first time I've seen a ranger that can make a good NPC. (As a PC, their skills are spotlighted enough to make them worth it but in 3.x their damage was pretty pathetic.) Skeletons that "explode" when "bloodied" is also awesome.

 

[Baron Opal]

I'm concerned about multi-classing, although intrigued by the concept that you can "feat-dip" into a class rather than spending a level to get something. If it works similarly like SWSE, that will be acceptible.

Something fear-worthy? Long term damage. It has been a long time since people were worried about having damage, hp or ability, last longer than a couple of days. What with wands and having the cleric just memorize the appropriate spells for a day. Regarless, having everyone completely fixed by morning by fiat rubs me the wrong way. I won't consider the issue settled until I see some poison and disease rules. What possibilities do or do not exist in that framework simply haven't been addressed yet.

 

[Wiman]

1. (very minor gripe) That with all the new books coming out every year the newest release will lose fhe balance from the first years characters as the designers push the envelopes. For anyone worried about the Bard and the Druid I believe they will come out in a year and be very powerful characters as people have time to playtest more without insane deadlines pushing them to make quick decisions.

2. (very minor gripe) This refers to #1, that the designers will not push for more varients on character classes we have on the new yearly books and spend more paper focusing on the new thus leading to everyone playing the flavor of the year instead of the new path on the old class.

3. (gripe) That the Dragonborn is just the tip of the iceberg for the core rules (IMHO I believe it should be a campaign specific race)...oddly I have no problem with Tieflings but will not be using Dragonborn in my campaign (that they are hatched not born is still one of my favorite parts of 4e fluff however)

Before anything is said I am well aware that I have no knowledge of what the future books will bring, it's just a concern based on some past experiences. 4e rocks, and I think I will be fascinated by each new MM that comes out.

 

[Celebrim]

Heck, even I don't think its as bad as that.

Post removed because it might have made someone feel unsafe or led to arguments. And sicse we've had enough of those lately...

 

[Crashy75]

Fear 1: The GSL.
Fear 2: Condition tracking, especially saving throws, will be a PitA.
Fear 3: Restrictions.
Exhibit 3.1: You can't attempt a trip or disarm.
Exhibit 3.2: Rogues seem to be forced to use small blades.
(hoping this has changed)
Minor fear: Multiclassing.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I fear spamming a lot. To get the most out of your powers you should always use them if you can. There is always a risk an encounter or day will end before you have the chance to use up all your powers. So it stands to reason to always use daily power on round 1, encounter power on round 2, and so on. It's just good housekeeping. And it's bo-oring.

This really shouldn't be much of an issue ... or, if it is, it's an easy habit to break. If I were DMing 4E and my players started routinely going mini-nova like this, I'd start designing or modifying encounters so that reinforcements arrive after a few rounds. Nothing teaches resource management like really really needing the resources you blew on a few punks.

It really is better to have something and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Collectively, the supporters seem more skeptical than I am.

You know, the funny thing is, I thought that the skeptics in "4E sceptics - what do you like?" suddenly seem to like a lot more stuff then I thought, and sometimes I am wondering why they call themselves skeptics.

But I think this is what I expected, as a whole. People have a lot of fears, and maybe sometimes, people just put themselves into a liker/skeptic camp because that's what you "have to do" - these days, people have to pick sides. Except in polls. Then everyone is suddenly undecided and want option n+1 of the offered n options.
Furthermore, not all fears - nor all hopes - are based on facts or will come true. Some might even be irrational (like my generic "I fear I don't like it, despite all evidence to the contrary")

What I hope is that the fears we post here are also fears that went to the designers and playtesters head, and actually have been addressed. But whether that is true or not - talking about your fear can be a relief.

 

[Cadfan]

Fear: I currently do not play on a grid. I'm not against converting, I'm just lazy and don't like most grid products available on the market. Those "wipe off" boards everyone has don't wipe off, for example.

Ambivalence: Don't care about action points. Don't hate 'em. Just don't care. If enough feats key off of them, maybe I will like them.

Fear: Too many small modifiers to track. I'm not worried about everyone having a mark/quarry/cursed foe, I trust my players to remember that. I'm worried about things like everyone getting +1 from aura modifiers and power bonuses. I'm sure it will be less bad than my last game (war weaver + favored soul + hexblade + paladin + spellthief), but I'd like it to be a LOT better, not just a LITTLE better.

Fear: I'm worried they didn't learn their lesson about AC modifiers. AC modifiers are equally powerful no matter what level you are. In 3e, an ability that provided an AC boost would typically start at +1, and then get better as you leveled up. This is dumb. There is no reason for it. Book of Nine Swords mostly avoided this, so they MIGHT have learned their lesson, but I don't know for sure.

Fear: 3e had a lot of abilities, typically spells, that became obsolete over time not because the ability itself wasn't sufficiently powerful, but rather because something that went along with the ability stopped being powerful enough. Sometimes it was spell DC, sometimes it was that the damage that went along with the attack eventually stopped being useful. Look at Obscuring Shadow Strike, from Book of Nine Swords. Hitting an enemy and inflicting a 50% miss chance is equally powerful regardless of the level of your foe. But the +5d6 damage eventually goes out of date, and you stop using this cool and themtaic power. There's no reason for this. They might have fixed this problem, but I don't have any way to know.

Fear: Too many legacy issues will still be there. I've sort of come to terms with chromatic dragons. Lets face it, chromatic dragons are dumb. Very dumb. D&D designers over the years have made heroic efforts to make them less dumb, but... they're still not as good as dragons who's seed concept was something other than a color. But I've lost this battle.

And the name "magic missile?" I think its genuinely hard to come up with a worse name. I'm not sure I can.

 

[Valdrax]

My worries

• Too much flavor hardwiring: Feats like "Power of Amaunator" make it seem like it's going to be difficult to make custom pantheons for your campaign world w/o a constant "translation legend" for what's on the character sheet, what's in the book, and what's in the campaign. Similarly, I still worry about "Golden Wyvern," "Emerald Frost," "Iron Sigil," and the rest of their ilk.
• Too much class hardwiring: Look at the Rogue powers that all rely on light blades or the weapon restrictions for sneak attack. Many single-class concepts are out, like a Rogue that uses longswords (a la the Gray Mouser) or a Rogue that prefers clubs and saps. A Rogue using any weapon other than a light blade is inherently suboptimal now. Additionally, this means that Fighter/Rogues will be strongly limited in what kinds of weapons they're effective with. I worry that multiclassing will be hamstrung in ways we haven't been able to see yet.
• Splatbook power creep: This isn't a worry so much as a recognition of the inevitable. Oh, sure, they're playtesting the PHB classes for balance right now, but anyone who's read an extensive list of 3.5 splatbooks knows for a FACT that they will at some point screw up and release something utterly broken. I doubt that 4e will ever reach Rifts' level of "this book makes all the previously released classes irrelevant... again," but it's inevitable that something bad will get through and be largely irreparable.
• Too few choices at high level: It's been outright stated that higher level powers replace lower level powers. This bothers me on three levels:
  1. Does this mean that a higher level character will still be "stuck in a rut" for moves?
  2. Does this mean that a higher level Wizard can't put people to sleep without giving up higher level powers?
  3. Will you come to regret decisions that gave up low level powers for higher level ones?
• Magic item dependence: With few options for higher level players from their characters, will players become reliant on magic items to provide "splash" for combat? While we're no longer dependent on them for survival in the dungeon, will we be dependent on them to alleviate boredom? In other words, will running a low-magic game face the difficult uphill battle against both a diminished set of rewards for adventuring and a diminished set of rewards for *playing* as well.

 

[Celebrim]

You know, the funny thing is, I thought that the skeptics in "4E sceptics - what do you like?" suddenly seem to like a lot more stuff then I thought, and sometimes I am wondering why they call themselves skeptics.

Conversely, if your fear list is longer than mine is, why are you calling your self someone who likes 4E? Don't you just mean that you like the idea of 4E? That you like 4E in abstract when it can occupy a fantasy space of a 'perfect system', but you don't actually like what you've seen of 4E? It seemed to me more of the 'fears' revolved around things that have been seen that things that hadn't been. Is that a fear? Oh well.

Hopefully everyone will be happy with whatever choice they end up making.

On the whole though, I think it is a good thing that people associated with negativity offer up thier positive assessments, and the people associated with positivity offer thier negative assessments. I'm getting sick and tired of the whole, 'If you like/don't like 4E, you must be an idiot' meme. There are good reasons for liking and disliking 4E. Everyone is entitled to thier own honest evaluation. Even opinions like, '4E is too anime/video game/board game' are perfectly valid opinions. Afterall, so is, '4E is not enough anime/video game/board game'. Depends on what you want in a game.

What I hope is that the fears we post here are also fears that went to the designers and playtesters head, and actually have been addressed. But whether that is true or not - talking about your fear can be a relief.

I'd been wanting to post a thread where I praised the good aspects of 4E, but I've started a new job and didn't have the time. I still might do so to explain what I like in more detail, but for now just being able to make a short list on the other thread has been nice.