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D&D 4E 4e Magic system, speculations?

Ktulu

First Post
Ugh, what a dummy. That makes a lot of sense. Every class would likely follow the exact same chart and after taking a "class training" feat, they then could access powers from other classes.

Judging by the comment about the warlord who took some spellcasting, you will be allowed to take any power based on your level, NOT based on being a 10th level warlord 1st level wizard.

If I'm anywhere close to what they're planning, my last little worry is out the door.
 

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Captain Eru

First Post
And now a word from...

Wizards of the Coast, whatever you or anyone else may think of them, have one goal: to make money. This is their business. A great many of them may also find it a hobby, but at its core, it’s a business and it’s about the dollar. Having said that, the best way for them to make money is to find out what we, the fans and players, want, and incorporate that into their products. This is part of the reason I’m psyched about Fourth Edition. I’ve been told that Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition is a bridge between Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and Fourth Edition, and from what I’ve seen, I love it.

Now, if they’ve shown the same attention to detail that they have with what else I’ve heard of Fourth Edition, the power of spells will be retrained without jeopardising the fun of the game. Throughout Third Edition and 3.5, I favoured the Spellcaster classes because, to put it bluntly, they’re more difficult. If we had someone who wasn’t quite there, we’d give them a Fighter or Barbarian, or something easy. But the spellcasters have so many special rules, durations, everything to keep track of, it took away a lot of the fun of it.

Much as Fitz seemed to suggest, I hope that spells are mostly fluff, but otherwise treated as basic concepts. Magic Missile is a good example of one that doesn’t require much tweaking. It’s long been a staple, it’s instantaneous, sure there’s no saving throw, but it’s never been phenomenal cosmic power. But I’ve seen games where players had to pull out scrap paper, and start doing long division to figure out how long their spell lasts, what it affects, how it affects them, or just as bad, having to pull out a Player’s Handbook, read and research the spell for fifteen minutes, by which time the other players are bored to tears.

It’s a delicate balance to be sure, but if the designers can come up with a version of Dungeons and Dragons where an intelligent player can read the book, play perhaps 2-6 sessions, and not have to revisit that book every subsequent session, then they will have come up with a winner. For those of us who want more out of it, I’m sure they will create endless supplements, but and I speak only for myself and the players I’ve known the longest, most of us want the game to be fun, still be Dungeons and Dragons, but not have to repeatedly look up rules, spells, skills, et cetera until insane.
And now, while I seem to have gone far off topic, back to the spellcasters. If spells are kept to an instantaneous, one round, perhaps two rounds, and then jump to encounter, and day, then that will certainly help with the flow of the game. When a spell has duration of seven rounds, some players stop taking note of it after 5, others might be still using it at after 14. It’s not intentional, but it happens even with the best of players. Keep modifiers to rolls to a minimum. Over simplification is possible, but it’s better than the alternative. Some players just aren’t capable of dealing with +2 because of what the Bard’s doing, I’m now Large which means I’m no longer encumbered because of my new strength score, but I’m more of a target, and it’s a Tuesday, so my special doesn’t work so well, but it’s night, so I get a bonus to my... somewhere along the lines, things are lost. Whether they’re accounted for twice, not accounted for at all, or there’s miscommunication, the game drags to a halt when someone points out, “Wait, that ended two rounds ago” and the DM has to choose whether to go back, or just move on.

Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition has given me reason to hope again. But I had high hopes for 3.5. Please don’t let me down again guys. Thanks.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
FitzTheRuke said:
Do we even KNOW that there will ONLY be 25 levels of spells? I was under the impression that the exact quote was "A wizard can cast 25th level spells" or somesuch which does not suggest that it doesn't go higher, and that the level of the spell is equal to the level you learn it at.

All this is my long way of saying: I think there is 30 levels of spells.

I disagree, but not because I think your reasoning is incorrect.

One of the GenCon quotes was precisely the one you stated: "A wizard can cast 25th-level spells."

However, since then, there was a quote from one of the designers or developers along the lines of "30 spell levels is too much granularity for the game."

That's an interesting conundrum. How can there be "25th-level spells" if 30 spell levels is too much granularity? Here's my personal solution to that logical problem.

Spell "Levels" are numbered based on when you get access to the spells in question. Assuming that Fourth Edition follows the d20 Modern/Star Wars Saga Edition model of Level 1 - Talent, Level 2 - Feat, Level 3 - Talent, Level 4 - Feat, et cetera, but replaces "Talent" with "Powers," the likely progression is as follows:

Odd Levels (1, 3, 5,...25, 27, 29): Gain Powers.
Even Levels (2, 4, 6,...26, 28, 30): Gain Feat.
Level 1: Starting feats.

So, a 1st-level character starts with both powers and feats, but he doesn't gain any "new" powers until 3rd-level. Under that set-up, there's only 15 levels of granularity in spells (which is less than 30), and there are 25th-level spells (the spells a wizard gains at 25th-level), but not 30th-level ones (since Level 30 grants a feat, as opposed to "Powers").

It's worth noting, and somewhat supportive, that all the Paladin Smites they previewed were "odd-level."

But hey, I'm just speculating.
 



Orius

Legend
Some of the speculation sounds interesting. I might miss Vancian magic a bit, it never really bothered me, but I know a lot of people hated it.

Being able to use the more traditional combat spells a limited number of times per day, while having more unlimited rituals for more situationally useful spells like knock, identify and so one doesn't sound too bad to me.
 

fnwc

Explorer
Orius said:
Being able to use the more traditional combat spells a limited number of times per day, while having more unlimited rituals for more situationally useful spells like knock, identify and so one doesn't sound too bad to me.
I wouldn't be surprised if rituals required some kind of focus and material components, and take much longer than normal to cast. I expect regular (non-ritual) spells will not need components.
 

Dragonblade

Adventurer
My theory is that there will be the potential for 30 levels of spells, I just don't think the first PHB will fill all those blanks. I think there will also be a mix of at will, per encounter, and per day spells at each spell level. I also think that access to a given spell level will map directly to character level.

For example, a 1st level wizard will have access to at will, per encounter, and per day powers from the level 1 spell list. Per Day level 1 spells will be more powerful then at will level 1 spells. As a wizard levels up they gain access to the spells in the spell level that equals their character level. They also probably have a preset progression that is probably independent of class that determines how many at will, per encounter, and per day slots they have available.

I suspect that choosing a class in 4e really just determines what class list you get to choose your powers from when you level up (with a bonus of one half your level in your other classes to help determine what spell/power level you can access ala initiator level from Bo9S). Class will also determine hitpoints, and perhaps provide a one-time flat bonus to certain Defenses like in SW Saga.

Since I doubt that WotC will provide at will, per encounter, and per day powers/spells for 30 levels, I suspect that filling in those blanks will be a perfect thing for a splat book.
 

Connorsrpg

Adventurer
JohnSnow So, a 1st-level character starts with both powers and feats, but he doesn't gain any "new" powers until 3rd-level. Under that set-up, there's only 15 levels of granularity in spells (which is less than 30), and there are 25th-level spells (the spells a wizard gains at 25th-level), but not 30th-level ones (since Level 30 grants a feat, as opposed to "Powers").

It's worth noting, and somewhat supportive, that all the Paladin Smites they previewed were "odd-level."

But hey, I'm just speculating.

As in many other threads I concur with you again Sir John....I mean it is my signature after all ;)

C
 

DreamChaser

Explorer
JohnSnow said:
But hey, I'm just speculating.

I agree as well. I have a number of players who have always been confused by the fact that you gain 8th level spells at 15th (or 16th) level.

If instead, what you have are various powers which you gain access to at different levels, it is less the idea that you are learning a 25th level spell but more accurate that you are high enough level to access this new tier of power.

So really what we likely have, is 15 "levels" of power (1, 3, 5, 7...29) but they aren't being called that because for Bahamut's sake we don't need to call everything "level" anymore.

DC

ps. when I explained to said gamers that dungeon "level" used to muddy the waters even further ("While in a 6th level dungeon, I was 5th level and cast a 3rd level spell"), they just rolled their eyes.
 

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