D&D 4E 4E: Manufactured Excitement

[WayneLigon]

So, honestly, why is everyone getting so excited/crazy about this?

I like seeing that the game I like is going to change and, from what I've seen so far, improve. I like improvement, and I like it even more when someone with a lot more time and experience at game design does it for me. Yes, I could improve the game myself a great deal more, but that would involve me writing my own gaming system and I don't have the time for that or the ability. But I like to see positive change.

Yes, I get excited. I like role-playing and I like well-designed rules systems for them. When you genuinely like something, you do get excited about it and concerned about how changes to it will affect what you like. This is natural and normal. If you don't feel some degree of excitement or concern, then likely the hobby doesn't mean much to you.

It also excites me that things I thought should be done to the game are being done. I can point at them and say 'I was right 15 years ago when I said D&D needed a good skill system and that most players want one to be included in the core game'.

So far from what I've seen and heard, it's mostly all roses and sunshine and kittens. I see no reason to be concerned or angry or negative. So I'm most like MerrickB in that regard.

If I saw things I disliked, I'd be right in there with the negative posts discussing what I do not like and what I want to see changed. I have not seen any yet.

Now, there's a good reason for that: I'm mostly concerned with things at the very core of the game. How magic works. How spells work. How combat works. What the classes are like and what are their abilities. So far, we don't know a lot about the major core parts of the game and how - or if - they will change. We have hints, but that's it.

Most of the hard info we've seen so far could be considered fluff. The revelations about the planes and cosmology and Asmodeus and the like? I couldn't care less one way or another. I do like to see change for the sake of change in things that have remained static for a long time, but it wouldn't matter to me if they got rid of every extraplanar creature, period, and had one entry in the MM under 'Demon'. We've never used extraplanar travel or creatures a great deal, so it's no big deal to me. I see no reason to be negative about it since it doesn't concern me, and a reason to be positive about it because it changes things that have been set in stone for decades.

Now the posts and blogs we've seen about core issues, I'm mostly fine with. We've seen stuff on Vancian casting (again, more hints than anything else), a few dollops of info on classes, and some hints about combat.

I've always despised the limitations of the Vancian system and so want to see it done away with as much as possible. Even small steps in that direction are good ones. So that's another positive. Maybe not as positive as it could be: a major positive for me would be 'we're going to throw away spells and do everything with a small set of customizable abilities' but so it goes. Still a + on the positive column.

I like the class info I've seen so far. I think that classes needed some re-working, as did races. Another + in the positive column.

My only negative so far has been the monster creation system hints. I don't want to go back to the bad old days of 'he can [dual-weild with no penalty]* because he's a monster'. At first that was in the - column. Now, they've come out with more info on it that has moved it to the Neutral column. I could go either way, until we have more info.

* change this to 'whatever rules-breaking ability you can name'.

As more gets revealed about the things I really do care a great deal about, my opinions may change. I could conceivably wind up hating 4E if they do some really stupid stuff, but I don't see that happening with the team they've built.

I like the idea of being able to discuss and pull apart and examine various ideas relaetd to that ahead of time - obviously you haven't seen where at least a few decisions are being changed because of fan reaction to them. We can safely assume that the playtesters have a much greater degree of core-level input (we have already seen that playtesters can and do change what the designers intend to put in), but we're listened to as well.

 

[Goobermunch]

A troll? Time to break out the flames of reason, and the acid of critical thought!

Is it just me, or is anyone else out there a little perplexed by the wild excitement of the MerricB's on this board?

WOTC wants to make more money. That's their job; they make money. As a company, that's is their goal. Fine. To do this, they have decided to release 4E.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

As gamers, and consumers, we know why they are doing this: again, to make money. It's not because our 3.5 games suddenly became unplayable. It's not because we were clamoring for 4E (the majority of gamers in most polls on this site didn't desire 4E for a number of years yet, if at all). It's not because WOTC really wants to make the game more fun for us; if their new release manages this, that's a bonus.

Classic mistake here, assuming that one motivation precludes the other. Maybe the motivation is: "There are some things we really didn't get right with 3.xe. Mearls had some great ideas in Iron Heroes, let's see if we can get him to fix those things. If we profit, hey, that's a bonus."

The bottom line is money; they know they can make a huge profit out of 4E, and that's why it is being created and released. If it's a great game, that is icing on the cake.

{I'm sure many WOTC people are working hard to make it a great game. But 4E is going to be release when the business people say, not when it is honed into "greatness." }

I'm sure the folks at Fasa didn't have the same thought in their minds when they put out the first edition of Shadowrun. Steve Jackson, probably never had such a thought when he put out GURPS.

So, honestly, why is everyone getting so excited/crazy about this?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I LIKE what I'm hearing. I've played d20 with a number of very smart, very critical gamers. There are some things that just don't work right in 3.xe. There are some things that can be done better. It sounds like they're addressing those things in 4e.

How are you not simply acting like little pawns being pushed around the board by the WOTC PR people?

Hmm. Perhaps because I've considered the things I don't like about 3.xe and see that they're addressing them in 4e? Oh, yeah, and because I occasionally think about stuff for myself.

If you are playing 3.5 and having fun, why even bother looking at/wasting time with 4E until (at the very least) it is released for a few months, and you get a chance to read reviews and do some (free) game tests?

Because I'm a geek. As a geek, I'm genetically predisposed to being an early adopter. Oh, and because I know a number of people who work in the game design field, and I like to know what is going on in their lives. Also, because by reading about what they're doing, I get a chance to know early on if this is something I'm interested in investing my limited time resources in.

All this chitter-chatter and overheated parsing of WOTC 4E snippets; it's really a bit sad.

I don't understand the blind fan-boy devotion, which is what I see in a lot of 4E threads. It is a new release of the game, released to make money. WOTC wants your money. That is the bottom line. And for this you are hopping up and down with excitement, your fistful of dollars extended?

Yeah, but I got excited about Ultima V before it came out too! And that Spider-Man movie too. See, I crave entertainment. I'm willing to trade my money for it. But hey, maybe I'm just weird that way.

Isn't it, well, more normal to, well, you know, actually view a new product with a modicum of skepticism, educate yourself about it (after it is released), and only then - if what you see matches your expectations - get excited about it and buy it?

See my earlier comment about being an early adopter. Also, I like being able to discuss this stuff with my friends.

Why this sheep-like, herd-like, lemming-like thralldom to WOTC financial-driven announcements?

Why the insultingly rude attempt to piss on my campfire? Yes, profit is one factor pushing the release of 4e. A desire to improve one of my hobbies is another. I liked what I saw in Iron Heroes. I like the work I've seen by Mike Mearls. I like knowing what's in the future of D&D.

You got a problem with that?

Tough.

--G

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I think that's an excellent point you made. 3.5 isn't unplayable, therefore, it shouldn't be updated. Please be sure to apply that to other things in your life. "This water is only a little bit brackish! I don't want municipal water purification until there's a dead zebra in my waterin' hole!"

Excuse me while I clean the slightly brackish water off my monitor and ponder how the heck a Zebra would end up in my watering hole.

Two,
Have you ever looked forward to something? There is merit in just living in the moment, but anticipation can be fun.

As for WotC wanting our money - well of course they do. Every business that exists wants our money. The difference is that most businesses don't have a product that we are passionate about like we are about D&D. That passion is a double-edged sword for WotC. It can get people excited for the new things they are working on, but if they do not do a decent job with the new edition, that excitment can quickly turn. I believe WotC understands this and as a result is truly putting forth their best effort. Whether I like the results of that effort remain to be seen, but so far it looks good to me.

 

[talien]

The three Star Wars sequels might not have been great either. But they were official entries, upgrades even, to the Star Wars universe from the official source. The launch of the first (fourth) movie was like a national holiday, with people taking the day off to see it.

Halo 3 is the same thing. People went nuts over the release. Why? Because it was that rare happening in geekdom: a landmark entry from an official source to a beloved hobby.

Can I share something with you, since we're buddies in our egalitarian view of the universe?

Come closer.

A little closer.

Closer.

It doesn't matter what 4E actually turns out to be. Or that Halo 3's graphics are similar to Halo 2. Or that the fourth Star Wars movie didn't recapture the magic for everyone who saw the first three.

It's the event itself that matters. For the moment, we are all united in our hope, our doubt, and our interest in the hobby we love. In a sense, speculating about our hobby's future is a hobby unto itself.

You don't have to agree with everyone, but ranting about peoples' excitement over a landmark event on a board dedicated to that very excitement seems a bit disingenuous.

 

[Wormwood]

It's the event itself that matters. For the moment, we are all united in our hope, our doubt, and our interest in the hobby we love. In a sense, speculating about our hobby's future is a hobby unto itself.

 

[olshanski]

Hurry up with this discussion.
There are only 4 people in front of me in line. I don't know where they are going, but I assume there is a beautiful view over those cliffs just ahead.

 

[WizarDru]

It's not because WOTC really wants to make the game more fun for us; if their new release manages this, that's a bonus.

Why do these have to be mutually exclusive goals? When Alan Moore writes a comic book like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or when Neil Gaiman writes a novel like American Gods or when Andrew Wyeth creates a painting or Dale Chihuly creates an installation of glass art or when Arthur Miller writes a play....do you honestly think that they have no expectation of turning a profit for their work? And that if they do so, that any artistic merit from their works is purely a bonus?

Given what I know of several of the creators from their presence here and elsewhere, I reject that notion. There is no reason that talented folks like Rich Baker or Mike Mearls can't honestly be invested in creating a great game simply because the game is also meant to turn a profit. Quite the contrary, in fact. If the game is a poor hack-job, it will be rejected and the game will lose both money and customers. It's in WotC's best interest to make it the best game it can possibly be, so that it can turn the largest profit possible.

Isn't it, well, more normal to, well, you know, actually view a new product with a modicum of skepticism, educate yourself about it (after it is released), and only then - if what you see matches your expectations - get excited about it and buy it?

Normal in what respect? Do people do this with upcoming Movies? Novels? Video Games? Political Candidates? Dinners at a restaurant? Some do, certainly. But others don't with such regularity I'm not sure why this surprises you. And it's a question of context.

When George Lucas released the trailer for Episode 1, fans were ecstatic. It looked fantastic and it was from the architect of some of the most popular movies in the history of mankind. There was widespread anticipation. Prior to the release of the Halo 3 video game, fan sites and magazines covered the development of the program with vast enthusiasm. Why? Because the track record of past performance these developers had. Lucas lost a lot of credibility with some fans over the newer trilogy, but that still didn't diminsh the anticipation for the following two films in a signifcant way, for example. And while many fans may have not liked large swaths of the new trilogy, some things did shine through and were readily adopted (midochlorians? No. The term Paduan? Yes.)

So when WotC comes out and says, "We're doing a new edition" and then proceeds to describe their philosophy behind their design choices and it meshes with what many players of the game believe, those players will be enthusiastic. This isn't unusual in any sense that I can see. Most of the changes that are being proposed are appealing to me and my gamers. Most of the new material that's appeared in the last couple of years has appealed to us, too. Thus, when the designers come out and explain that they're working to improve the game based on their experiences and player feedback and their discussion indicate to folks like me that they ARE moving towards improving MY game, I'm enthusiastic.

 

[Daztur]

If you are playing 3.5 and having fun,

I'm not. 3.5ed has a lot of problems that annoy the heck out of me and I was on the verge of giving up on it when 4ed was announced.

 

[delericho]

Is it just me, or is anyone else out there a little perplexed by the wild excitement of the MerricB's on this board?

No. I dread the day I have nothing to look forward to.

 

[RandomCitizenX]

I just wanted to add my two cents about enthusiasm. I am excited about 4th ed because it gives me a chance to jump back into a game I love with a group of new gamers and new ideas. I have not really played D&D in a year or two. I have however been playing a whole lot of Mutants and Masterminds, nWoD, and Savage Worlds. I miss playing D&D but I am tired of many of the conventions of 3e. I feel that a shot of fresh ideas and design is what the game needs to reinvigorate the experience for me. It also helps me bring my newer players up to speed when I can go. "Hey, early next year I am going to start a D&D game, and since it will be with a brand new edition you will be on the ground floor when it comes to the books." I have had many a player (including my wife) hesitant to get involved with the game because of the book bloat that has happened since 3e has come out.

I know that WotC is most likely being motivated by their financial needs. They are a company. But that does not mean that their product will be an empty hollow excuse of a game trying to suck money from us. If anything they want us gamers to enjoy the new product so we will continue to spend money on their books.