D&D 4E 4e Monster List - Dwarven Nosepicker & Elven Butt Scratcher

[RigaMortus2]

So instead of fighting 'an orc' for the 100th time, you get to fight 'an orc berserker' for the 20th time, 'an orc skirmisher' for the 20th time, 'an orc shaman' for the 20th time, 'an orc rager' for the 20th time and 'an orc tree humper' for the 20th time...

I would rather they did keep the base race (orc, kobold, gnoll, etc.) with templates or something to add to give them the berserker or shaman or rager or beastmaster feel. You can still keep the NPC creation simple (as they claimed to have done anyway)...

 

[Cadfan]

I agree---but I would rather that 4e makes mixing and matching monster attributes so simple that we see a dozen Frost Giants posted within a day of the MM's release.

Actually, building on that: I think 4e monster creation is going to be a lot easier. But, I think that 4e Monster Manual writing is going to be a lot harder.

Previously, Fire Giants and Frost Giants were extremely similar. I'm looking at their stats right now, and basically, if you take a Frost Giant, add a hit die, change everywhere that says "Frost" to "Fire," and change the weapon from Greataxe to Greatsword, you pretty much have a Fire Giant.

This is true of most humanoid races.

I don't think that's going to cut it in 4e. Look at the humanoids we have so far. They invariably have a racial power that defines them a bit and makes them more different from other humanoid races. They also tend to have built in cultural differences, in that the combination of builds for each humanoid, as a group, portray a specific style of fighting.

Creating these differences isn't that hard with the basic humanoid races, as a lot of them are pretty different in description, even if not in 3e gameplay. Kobolds, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Gnolls... each has a distinct style. But I'm not sure that creatures who's primary difference in the past was element choice will have the same degree of design cues. Really, what DOES make a Fire Giant different from a Frost Giant with an extra hit die, a different element, and a new weapon? And not just one Fire Giant, the whole Fire Giant culture?

I'm sure someone can come up with something.

I just think it may be harder than it used to be due to raised expectations.

 

[Bagpuss]

The word filler suggests that that are not interesting. I would suggest another term.

1) A MM with 150 unique creatures and 350 specializations of those creatures
2) A MM with 500 unique creatures?

I would defiantly take 1 as well. But I'd be disappointed if it was sold as a book with 500 monsters in it.

 

[Dausuul]

But are they really that unique, or is it the wording that's making them look all shiny? Let's take a look at the Kobold Dragon Shield, for example. It has 5 abilities listed:

1) Short Sword Attack - pretty standard fare.
2) Dragon Shield Tactics - sounds like a feat to me.
3) Mob Attack - again, a feat akin to Swarm Attack and the like.
4) Shifty - ye old 5 ft. step.
5) Trap Sense - nothing unique there. Kobolds were always good with traps. So are rogues.

So let's repackage that.

Kobold Rogue 1/Fighter 1 - attacks with a short sword, can take a 5 ft. step, has two feats, one of which is Swarm Attack, and the other is a feat called Dragon Shield. Has trapfinding, though not quite trap sense, but it's 'trap' abilities are covered nicely with trapfinding, search, and other skills. Is that unique?

Pinotage

This is missing the point.

Yes, with enough work in 3E, with all the splatbooks at your command, you can construct a kobold who has roughly the same abilities as the Kobold Dragon Shield.

But how many splatbooks do you have to use? And how long does it take you? And most importantly, how long does it take you to work out the concept of the Kobold Dragon Shield to begin with?

The 4E Monster Manual has already done all that work, balanced it, packaged it, and made it ready to play.

 

[fafhrd]

I agree---but I would rather that 4e makes mixing and matching monster attributes so simple that we see a dozen Frost Giants posted within a day of the MM's release.

Best of both worlds. We've gotta stop agreeing like this. That or get a game going.

Actually, building on that: I think 4e monster creation is going to be a lot easier. But, I think that 4e Monster Manual writing is going to be a lot harder.

Awesome. No more boilerplate. This is a positive development IMO.

 

[Nebulous]

Does 4e still easily allow a class level (or 2, or 3) slapped on a monster? I don't think anyone has said so yet, but i don't see why not. That Hobgoblin Warcaster could also be a 3rd level Wizard, but it would get tricky trying to incorporate each and every PC special ability tacked onto a monster. Maybe the multi-classing rules (however they work) would suffice. You just "steal" a couple of abilities from a class and slap it on your monster.

 

[Patlin]

I am really, really fond of the idea of being able to run an Orc encounter with 5 different kind of orc, each one with a different fighting style but still with an overall orcish feel. Having them all in the same section of the same monster book is even better. Does this detract from the overall number of monsters per book? Yes. I know I'll be buying other monster books over time anyway, though, so I'm not exactly worried about having fewer 'unique' creatures in MM1.

I'd rather have 5 orcs in one section of the monster manual and leave frost giants for MM2 than have 2 here and 3 there.

In play, I see "Six orcs spot you, two Berzerkers heave axes into the air and charge, three archers open fire, and the last one hoists a pie, ready to throw" as being much more desirable than "Six orcs spot you, they all heft axes and charge." The new format encourages the more interesting encounter.

 

[Wormwood]

Does 4e still easily allow a class level (or 2, or 3) slapped on a monster?

Yep (according to Mearls earlier in this thread)

 

[Nebulous]

Yep (according to Mearls earlier in this thread)

ah, thanks. I hadn't read the whole thing.

 

[Saitou]

Actually, building on that: I think 4e monster creation is going to be a lot easier. But, I think that 4e Monster Manual writing is going to be a lot harder.

Monster design will most definitely be more challenging than before. Developing those monsters? Absolutely not.