D&D 4E 4e Monster List - Dwarven Nosepicker & Elven Butt Scratcher

[EATherrian]

Hmm, soo let me get this straight. If I dont like it, then anyone who does like it is lame?

Not at all. I'm saying the names are lame in what I see as their purpose: to tell me what the monster does. I've discussed it above, and don't feel I need to defend my critique of WoTC's naming skills any more. If you like it, kudos, I don't.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If your creative efforts in 3E were limited to making up new variants on the theme of "kobold mook," I feel for your players.

Me, I'd rather invest that creative effort in making up an interesting plot, a cool game world, and important NPCs.

Let me know when you get past, "Kobolds! With shields! Gosh, it would have taken me forever to come up with that. Thank God for the genius of 4e!" and then we'll talk about how interesting your plots, world, and NPCs can be.

Let's review:

And most importantly, how long does it take you to work out the concept of the Kobold Dragon Shield to begin with?

Two ing seconds.

 

[AndrewRogue]

Can I ask? How much prep do you do before sessions?

 

[AllisterH]

It's a fair point to say that the 4e creatures do contain new mechanics (new 'feats'), but I don't think it invalidates what I was saying above since giving a base creatures a new feat or two hardly makes it unique.

Pinotage

I still have to disagree. Your point is that it is better to stat out kobold, orc, gnoll and goblins than to have variations of kobold since the former is more unique.

Let's look at the 5 varieties of kobolds we are going to get.
Kobold (Wyrmpriest, Skirmisher, Dragon Shield, Slinger, Minion)

and compare it to what we have had previously (not only 3.x but 1E/2E as well).

Goblin
Kobold
Orc
Gnoll

I'm honestly not seeing how you consider the latter 4 UNIQUE creatures yet the kobolds as simply "monster + class". Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that instead of fighting 100 kobolds, you fight 20 of each type. You know what? That's still better than fighting 25 each of goblins/kobolds/orcs/gnolls in previous editions since they ARE the same creatures ("yeah, weapon choice makes a big difference, NOT").

With the combination of signature race abilities and roles, one can do 20 kobold encounters and they'll play differently straight out of the box whereas the so-called unique monsters of previous editions, an orc encounter is pretty much the exact same as a gnoll encounter which is the same as a goblin encounter which is the same as a kobold encounter.

The reason why MMIV was so hated that many of the levelled creatures simply sucked in their role AND they had extraneous information that you did not need. Siimply put, a DM could've done a better job.

A kobold Wyrmpriest has all the information needed for its role and it is optimized for that role whereas simply slapping a class level on the standard kobold may not result in the same effect.

Contrast with simply adding a wizard level to a kobold (you have to change stats around, add feats, choose appropriate class abilities)

Seriously, I'm definitely in favour of the role breakdown that the 4E MM is going to have.

 

[Celebrim]

Can I ask? How much prep do you do before sessions?

Generally speaking, I expect prep time to equal or slightly exceed play time. That's been true for every prior edition, and for every game in any system I've ran. I know a few people can wing it consistantly, and I've winged it starting with only a rough idea from time to time or when the players have thier own unexpected idea, but in my general experience the DM's that put in the most prep time are the better DMs. Conversely, most of the bad DM's I've suffered under thought that they could wing it with little prep time.

 

[Dausuul]

Let me know when you get past, "Kobolds! With shields! Gosh, it would have taken me forever to come up with that. Thank God for the genius of 4e!" and then we'll talk about how interesting your plots, world, and NPCs can be.

Okay, first, I'm going to apologize for the "feel for your players" comment. Upon review, I realized that was excessively snarky and hostile, and changed it in the original post to something less inflammatory.

That said--the kobold dragonshield isn't "kobold with shield." The key elements are the "dragonshield tactics" ability and the ability to mark opponents. Both of these are designed to produce a specific flavor in play. All kobolds are "shifty," but the dragonshield is incredibly hard to pin down, thanks to his ability to react to "I move up next to the kobold" with "I step away from the big nasty adventurer." Plus he hits harder than other kobolds and has a debuff going on. Frankly, as a PC, I would quickly learn to hate this guy.

If you want to demonstrate how easy it is to come up with these concepts, give us a variation on the kobold. Give it a special ability that distinguishes it from the variants we've got so far, fits the theme of kobolds as evasive little nuisances, is reasonable for its level, and makes it qualitatively different in play--that is, the PCs will remember it as more than "the kobold that took three hits to kill instead of two." Then tell us how long it took to come up with this.

Again--not a huge effort, I doubt it'd take me more than a few minutes, but not trivial.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Can I ask? How much prep do you do before sessions?

Are you asking me?

About 2 hours per session.

About 90% of which is spent making maps in Photoshop for use with my projector, and 10% of which is spent printing a stack of standard statblocks. YMMV-- you might prefer to read them straight out of the MM.

If I need a troglogyte shaman, my troglodyte gets a few hit points and casts scorching ray or shield whenever I feel like it.

Nobody asks me what his BAB is, nobody asks me how many skill points he has, and the universe does not implode.

I expect this to continue to be the case in 4e. I'll spend most of my dedicated prep time making pretty maps; I'll spend time on my shower and drive working out plots; and "statblock accuracy" will be the least of my concerns.

Unfortunately, I predict that 4e is not going to make obsessive compulsive players any less obsessive.

 

[The Little Raven]

Generally speaking, I expect prep time to equal or slightly exceed play time.

6-7 hours of prep work for 5-6 hours of game time? OH HELL NO. This is a game, not a second job.

 

[Pinotage]

I still have to disagree. Your point is that it is better to stat out kobold, orc, gnoll and goblins than to have variations of kobold since the former is more unique.

I think we're not seeing eye-to-eye on what we define as unique. I view unique as a separate race, whereas I believe you're seeing it as a separate creature. The 4e kobolds are 'unique' creatures, sure, just like any creature is unique, but they're still kobolds. They're just different combinations of kobolds. You could fill an entire MM with combinations of kobolds, each being an 'unique' creature, but there'd only be one unique race - kobold.

As I illustrated, possibly poorly, above, the 4e kobold dragon shield is nothing other than a kobold with feats and class levels (looking at it from a 3e point of view). Whereas you're seeing an unique creature, I'm seeing a kobold that's no different mechanically than a base kobold with class levels, feats and specific weapons. So, yes, effectively, the kobold dragon shield is just a kobold with class levels. We're not only talking weapon choices here, but most of the 4e abilities can be described as 'feats' quite easily from the 3e point of view. Or spells, if you prefer.

What I would prefer is a MM with unique races. It just feels like you're getting more bang for you buck with 500 unique races rather than 150 unique races, and 350 specific creatures that share the similar races. If you could create one 'unique' creature from a race for each role (I think there are 6), then 4e MM can give you 900 creatures. I'd have hoped to see one give 3000, even if it took a little work on my part. More versatility.


All the 4e kobolds are just kobolds. Viewing them from a 3e perspective, they have different feats, spells, weapons, etc. but they're still kobolds. 'Unique' creatures, but still only one unique race. I don't really see this as any different to MMIV. The classes are just disguised because they're not named as such, but the mechanical effect is exactly the same.

Pinotage

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If you want to demonstrate how easy it is to come up with these concepts, give us a variation on the kobold. Give it a special ability that distinguishes it from the variants we've got so far, fits the theme of kobolds as evasive little nuisances, is reasonable for its level, and makes it qualitatively different in play--that is, the PCs will remember it as more than "the kobold that took three hits to kill instead of two." Then tell us how long it took to come up with this.

Kobold Poisoner
Kobold Weasel Wrangler
Kobold Fungi Gardener

etc.

Again--not a huge effort, I doubt it'd take me more than a few minutes, but not trivial.

Coming up with the concept is trivial. It is not, as you said, "the most important part."

Being creative should be the least laborious part of the process for the DM.

Statting it out to painstaking detail is where the work comes in. It is exactly as much of a chore as you want it to be, and there's no doubt that 4e will make it easier than 3e.

4e is not going to DM your game for you, no matter how easy they make it. It is not for the lazy-minded.

EDIT: And make no mistake, I am a VERY LAZY DM. Any of my players will attest to this.