D&D 4E 4e monsters, Hit Dice, and HP

[Kunimatyu]

This seemed to get some interest in the 4e monster thread, so I'll repost it here:

I think HD-based effects will be gone entirely, and HP will be the new "hit dice".

For example, Cause Fear affects creatures of 5HD or lower -- why not just have it affect creatures with under 25 hitpoints? Not only does it make the spell more versatile, it also makes a lot of sense, as creatures brought to a low number of HP from taking damage should be more likely to get scared off by a magical effect than they were at 100 hp.

 

[Adso]

This seemed to get some interest in the 4e monster thread, so I'll repost it here:

I think HD-based effects will be gone entirely, and HP will be the new "hit dice".

For example, Cause Fear affects creatures of 5HD or lower -- why not just have it affect creatures with under 25 hitpoints? Not only does it make the spell more versatile, it also makes a lot of sense, as creatures brought to a low number of HP from taking damage should be more likely to get scared off by a magical effect than they were at 100 hp.

Or why not make it even simplier. Just saying.

 

[Imaro]

I thought I'd repost my concerns/issues with this type of system, from the other post, here...

I could see so many problems with doing it this way...especially if it works for both players and monsters.

My main point of contention is the metagame aspect of it all. How does a player know when a monster falls below a certain hit point threshold? I certainly don't give out this information in the game's I run, so I see two possibilities from a player perspective.

1. Tons of wasted spells as they guess at what hit points a particular monster or creature is at.

2. Metagame is now the game, Everyone(DM and player) knows how many hit points their opponents have and act accordingly in the game.

Neither of these options appeal to me at all.

From a DM's perspective it also has certain problems. First in order to use abilities that are dependant upon what hit point threshold my players are at I will have to cross reference their hit point totals and the total at which the ability takes place throughout the combat. I don't see this as streamlined in anyway, it seems overly complicated since each PC is going to have different hp's at different times throughout the entire encounter. Second, how would my monster/NPC know when to use this ability? Yet, I as DM will always know exactly when to use it. Do I pretend the monster is at the same disadvantage as the players, or are we once again at the point where metagame is the game.

IMHO, this would be jarring in the extreme during play and would have the added complication of both PC's and DM's concerned with tracking their opponents hp's. I can see it now, everyone with a small tablet steadily recording how many hp's each has so they'll know when to use their ability.

 

[mmadsen]

I think HD-based effects will be gone entirely, and HP will be the new "hit dice".

I'd be inclined to remove the HD-based effects, period. Do they need to be replaced? Don't tougher monsters already have better saves?

(On the other hand, if you're going to have a hit-point-based combat system, it's probably good design to work hit points into everything. If only hit points made some kind of sense...)

 

[Oldtimer]

Or why not make it even simplier. Just saying.

Damn you, vile woman!... eh, developer.

 

[JoelF]

I definately don't like hp threshold for most spells (though I'm fine with them for power words), because that basically means that fighter types with more hp are more resistant to lots of spells compared to low hp classes like wizards (who should be better at resisting spells which target the mind.)

 

[Adso]

Damn you, vile woman!... eh, developer.

I may not be the best looking guy in the world, but I would make a worse looking woman.

 

[Kunimatyu]

I definately don't like hp threshold for most spells (though I'm fine with them for power words), because that basically means that fighter types with more hp are more resistant to lots of spells compared to low hp classes like wizards (who should be better at resisting spells which target the mind.)

You don't think a wizard should be more prone to Fear, to give one example, than a big burly fighter-guy with lots of HP?

 

[JRR_Talking]

You don't think a wizard should be more prone to Fear, to give one example, than a big burly fighter-guy with lots of HP?

No

Fear can be because of not understanding something, fear of the unknown or 'unimaginable'.

one assumes the knowledgeable/intelligent/wise wizard or diviner wouldnt succumb to this as easy as the higher hp fighter.

Fear is also often a very annoying game effect
-having to chase things down dungeons/keep track of such things
-a cleric for example could succumb to fear against an undead he is highly likely of destroying with a word (turn)


Interesting to see how this is all handled.

 

[WhatGravitas]

My main point of contention is the metagame aspect of it all. How does a player know when a monster falls below a certain hit point threshold? I certainly don't give out this information in the game's I run, so I see two possibilities from a player perspective.

Well, don't you have the same problems with HD? You (usually) don't know the opponents' HD, but the GM always knows yours!

But a HP-based mechanic would make spreading damage more viable, unlike the current "mow-down-one-after-one-to-deprive-them-of-actions", hence more viable tactics are possible, allowing for more varied gameplay.

one assumes the knowledgeable/intelligent/wise wizard or diviner wouldnt succumb to this as easy as the higher hp fighter.

But to counteract that, the diviner has a better Will save -> The smart guys always have a respectable defense, while the fighter has mostly to rely on his courage and current state.

Cheers, LT.