D&D 4E 4e - More monsters per encounter?

[Simplicity]

One thing that seems to come up in virtually every other preview is that 4e will have more monsters per encounter. Now maybe this is just because combat is streamlined and significantly faster... Maybe combat groups are stated out in the MM.

One aspect may be that there were various things that got in the way of larger groups in 3e... For example, you want an EL6 encounter? Well thats 1 CR 6 monster, or 2 CR 4s, or 4 CR 2s (approximately 2 CRs per doubling of number). Well, CR 2s are pretty weak against CR 6 PCs just in terms of to-hit power.

D&D may have taken a note from MMORPGs here and created "minion" (low hitpoint) (and maybe also "elite" (higher hitpoint)) monsters. Bascially, the monsters still have many interesting abilities, but fall much faster and so combat doesn't drag into a slugfest back and forth.

 

[F4NBOY]

I hope encounters are simply like this:
You have 4 5th level characters, that means 20 lvls of power. If you want a hard encounter(50% chances of winnings for both sides) just put 20 1st lvl monsters, or 10 2nd level monsters.
If you want an easy/moderate encounter(75% of winning for the PC side) just put half of that, like 3 3rd lvl monsters plus a 1st level monster=10 lvls.
I don't know if something like this would be possible to achieve, but it would make creating encounter damn easy!

 

[KingCrab]

I don't get this statement, or the fantastic environment statments either.

What if the players attack just one creature? Shouldn't the number of creatures have something to do with the module or adventure being run? The number of creatures per combat should not be written into the rules.

Also, they've been talking about environment playing a bigger role, but what if the players fight someone on a normal cobblestone path? What if I don't feel like adding a lava pit to the room just to make the upcoming battle more exciting?

I guess I'm trying to say: The story should come first. The number of creatures in the combats and the envoirnment should depend on the story. This does not bode well for role-playing focused DMs.

 

[Simplicity]

I don't really see how the rules could possibly FORCE you to use more monsters or FORCE you to be fighting on lava and ice all of the time. The PHB is not going to say something like:
Roll d10: On a 1, you're fighting on lava!

The designers aren't stupid. They know the game.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I don't get this statement, or the fantastic environment statments either.

What if the players attack just one creature? Shouldn't the number of creatures have something to do with the module or adventure being run? The number of creatures per combat should not be written into the rules.

Also, they've been talking about environment playing a bigger role, but what if the players fight someone on a normal cobblestone path? What if I don't feel like adding a lava pit to the room just to make the upcoming battle more exciting?

I guess I'm trying to say: The story should come first. The number of creatures in the combats and the envoirnment should depend on the story. This does not bode well for role-playing focused DMs.

What kind of fantastic adventure stories are you setting up that DON'T involve crumbling ruins where every step could be your last, seas roiling as might galleons and mightier sea monsters clash, clock towers grinding their massive gears within arms reach, pools of lava bubbling on the sides, quicksand at every turn, raging rivers threatening to sweep you to vast waterfalls, airships crashing apart miles above barren crags, statues tumbling from their ancient alcoves, bottomless chasms below and earthquake-loosened stalactites above?

D&D is not a generic game. It is a game of fantastic adventure (very specifically, it is a game of high fantasy adventure, about which I'm rather less enthused), and the lack of support for exciting environmental features has been one of its biggest weaknesses in the past.

If you use D&D for something other than its adventure roots, more power to you - the rules can't force you to use cool and thrilling settings any more than they do any other element. That they will, at long last, apparently PROVIDE for these elements can only be to the good.

 

[F4NBOY]

Since Mike Mearls is the lead developer, people SHOULD take a look at Iron Heroes for some "previews", as much as they may do with SWSE.
This game is all about characters managing resources, per encounter class abilites and, regarding this thread, rules for enviromental dangers and challenges, like a crumbling pillar that can be used to attack a monster, how can you use a chair to give a combat edge, and stuff like that.
OPTIONS to make the encounter more intersting, dinamic and fun.

Edit: Just remembered the name. They are called "combat zones".

 

[KingCrab]

What kind of fantastic adventure stories are you setting up that DON'T involve crumbling ruins where every step could be your last, seas roiling as might galleons and mightier sea monsters clash, clock towers grinding their massive gears within arms reach, pools of lava bubbling on the sides, quicksand at every turn, raging rivers threatening to sweep you to vast waterfalls, airships crashing apart miles above barren crags, statues tumbling from their ancient alcoves, bottomless chasms below and earthquake-loosened stalactites above?

Actually, I haven't written an adventure since 2nd edition quite a long time ago. I was talking about modules I've run recently, like Red Hand of Doom and many adventures from Dungeon Magazine. I don't want to give anything away from RHoD but the most entertaining and exciting battle in the module (IMO) took place simply in a big field.

I think tossing in the clocks, lava, airships and quicksand is not really the way to go. What makes a battle exciting doesn't have to do with any of that. Many really good modules have been released recently by authors who understand that.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Actually, I haven't written an adventure since 2nd edition quite a long time ago. I was talking about modules I've run recently, like Red Hand of Doom and many adventures from Dungeon Magazine. I don't want to give anything away from RHoD but the most entertaining and exciting battle in the module (IMO) took place simply in a big field.

I don't know that adventure, but I'll admit I can think of a few where a big field is the most exciting of all - mostly involving very large reptiles that may or may not be able to fly overhead and kill you with a breath if you don't run for cover!

I think tossing in the clocks, lava, airships and quicksand is not really the way to go. What makes a battle exciting doesn't have to do with any of that. Many really good modules have been released recently by authors who understand that.

Clocks, lava, airships and quicksand are not REQUIRED to make a battle exciting. I have never, however, seen a battle that was LESS interesting because of them.

 

[jmucchiello]

What I don't understand is how multiple monsters per encounter is new. I'm use to 6-player parties and when you send one monster against 6 PCs, combat lasts 1 round maybe 1.5 rounds. Either the monster is taken out quickly or a TPK happens because the monster is too good. There very little area in between that yields a meaningful battle lasting several rounds. No, you must have other monsters around to support the main foe just like the players need each other to support one another.

 

[BlackMoria]

It will probably be like Iron Heros 'combat zones'

Basically, the environment enhances the fight.

Example: Tavern brawl. Tables and chairs can be flipped, throw, stacked up, etc. Mugs can be thrown, people can swing from hung lighting, rugs can be pulled, etc.

Now, most people may say "I do that already..."

However, combat zones have measured effects. Pullilng the rug on a foe standing on it will result in Balance check with a set DC. A table may have a chance to daze, stun or stagger a foe depending on whether it was shoved, flipped or outright thrown at them. Barrels can be rolled into people, requiring Dex or Balance checks.

That is one aspect.

The other aspect is unusual 'terrain'. For example, fighting on dragon turtle. Ever consider what the ramifications are for fighting the BBEG while everyone (BBEG included) are standing on the back of the dragon turtle. And the dragon turtle isn't pleased about that. The back and other parts of the dragon turtle become combat zones which have rules or ramifications for having the combat in that location. Scaling the legs of a giant. You get the idea.

That is probably what the environment rules refer to.