D&D 4E 4e Multiclassing structure and Weapons of Legacy, Dragonmarks, etc.

[DerekSTheRed]

Personally, I've been toying with the idea of turning Birthright-style scions into a multiclassing choice. At first level, you'd select your "Scion of <Bloodline>" feat, which would be just like the MC feats for classes, give each bloodline a list of unique powers that can be taken with multiclass power-swap feats, as well as the paragon path-style bonuses to be taken later.

Gotta love the Birthright reference. I definitely think BR blood abilities should be an extra choice of powers for scions. Sort of like how your race will open up racial feats and powers. Being blooded would allow you to take blood powers and feats with the initial cost of your first level feat to be blooded. Subsequent powers may be upgraded when you level via retraining.

One of the balance issues with 2Ed Birthright was when a few characters at the table had blood powers and others didn't. The necessitated a 25% XP bonus for any non-blooded PC adventuring with a blooded one. Swapping makes it more balanced. I was going to wait for the ECS to model how to do blood abilities in my 4E BR campaign, but I may use the MC rules as model instead.

Derek

 

[jeffhartsell]

We play in Eberron and I am on the fence about wanting to bring in the dragonmarks with house rules. I both play and GM (at different times) and we make sure we use the same house rules and Eberron for all of our campaigns. I can see that we might not do justice to dragonmarks or on the other end make them too good.

We'll see. Since they won't be officially an option most of our group won't care about making them available.

 

[Graf]

edited post to add all the houses and a few more examples. Obviously this is tough to do without the books actually being out.

Just as a mental exercise, here is an example of how Dragonmark feats might work if using the Multiclass feats as template of power level.

Least Dragonmark (of Detection)
Prerequisites: Half-Elf, House Medani
• +1 bonus to Spot skill checks
• Arcana skill as trained skill
• Gain Mark of Detection Ritual Casting

Lesser Mark: (of Detection)
Prerequisites: Half-Elf, House Medani, Least Mark, 4th Level
• Swap one encounter power with a Mark of Detection encounter power. (with 1-3 to choose from)

Intermediate Mark: (of Detection)
Prerequisites: Half-Elf, House Medani, Least Mark, Lesser Mark, 8th Level
• Swap one utility power with a Mark of Detection utility power. (with 1-3 to choose from)

Greater Mark: (of Detection)
Prerequisites: Half-Elf, House Medani, Least Mark, Lesser Mark, Intermediate Mark, 10th Level
• Swap one daily power with a Mark of Detection daily power. (with 1-3 to choose from)

First a general critique: The least mark of detection is very unattractive to wizards (who already have ritual casting and arcana as a class skill). I do think you're on the right track but the two sides of the coin are "does this feat have enough to be worth taking for every class" and "is it too powerful?"
With regard to the latter bear in mind that dragonmarks 1) are limited by race 2) unique (you can only have one) 3) leaves you vulnerable to certain effects. So they can be a tad bit better than a normal feat.
[sblock=3)]Dragonmarked had a bunch of interesting spells that only affected dragonmarked people. So spells that caused your dragonmark to become animate and attack you, etc. Not really sure if that'll be carried over to 4e, or whether it's significant enough to matter.[/sblock]

Having said that I'm not sure why you need to make it this complex AND then try to squeeze each mark into the same feat. It's both tricky to understand and going to be hella difficult to balance.
4e is an exception based system. You don't make a big complex system and then try to have everything fit inside. You make parts, which are linked together and then let people take each part if they want.

As I said on the the other thread (why are there two threads on the same topic going?) my version would be more like:

deleted more coherent post below

 

[Mort_Q]

(why are there two threads on the same topic going?)

This one was started when the multiclassing excerpt was posted, and fell off the first page. The other one was started today.

A mod could combine them.

 

[Graf]

Not to toot my own horn but it's hard to underestimate the "balancing hell" you can get sucked into if you try to make everything one feat (or one of several linked feats) and then squeeze stuff into it.

deleted more coherent post below

 

[Graf]

This one was started when the multiclassing excerpt was posted, and fell off the first page. The other one was started today.

Fair enough. Obviously this thread is a lot broader.

The stuff on dragonmarks really belongs in the other thread but it seems like everyone who was posting on that thread just migrated here.

I think Eberron's greatest flaw is the notion that everything in D&D has a place in Eberron.

I actually wildly disagree with you as only an obsessive Eberron booster might.
"everything has it's place" doesn't (thank god) mean that it's "just the way it is in the core books".
Elves. for example, work in Eberron (which is to say that they have a set of flavorful and interesting back story that isn't just "we're pretty super humans"). Ditto aberrations (they're from Xoriat), psionics (they come from one or two locations and are tied into the fluff in a coherent way) and so on.

Having said that

Some cool and unique things get obscured by the more familiar stuff of other campaigns. The Eberron stuff felt like it was tacked on, because it had to balance with all that other stuff from all the other books.

I do agree that certain books (the players guide to Eberron) were really just giant attempts to jam force everything, no matter how ridiculous, overpowered, or out of place, into Eberron and justify people's purchases of cheesy books.
So now you have Githzerai and Goliaths and Mages of the Arcane Guild wandering around Khorvaire without a comprehensible back story.

But most of the decent Eberron books (Forge of War, etc) basically just pretend that never happened.

With the new 4e approach of 3 books and done I hope/pray that they won't waste page count talking about how "yes there could be tribes of goliaths wandering around the Eldeen Reaches" type ____.

I don't know. I do know that I'm both excited about starting a campaign where I don't have to feel like an ass for saying all the stuff in column A is banned, or nervous that when the official stuff comes out, I'll like that better.

Yeah. I'm hoping that KB/JW/somebody will give a bit of guidance.
But for them to guide we need to put stuff out and get reactions. So...

 

[jeffhartsell]

I'm an Eberron fanboi as well and am not yet sure how I'd like to see dragonmark and mark buffs work. The racial feat powers like second chance give us a peak at bonus powers, but those are not as powerful as I envision dragonmarks. However, bonus powers IMO that are good are too good to give out as feats unless they are 1/day and comparable to encounter strength. So then is it too weak?

Lots of play testing is needed

 

[Graf]

Dragonmark Feat System Proposal v0.2


Assumptions/goals

• Follow the 4e design philosophy (exceptions based, simple, cool powers with minimal bookkeeping)
• Balanced attractive options
• Given the preceding as-close-as-possible-match to 3.5 fluff (and mechanics). (these aren't supposed to be the most awesome uber powers out there, a dragonmarked character who is "ported" over to 4e will feel very similar to 3.5)
  So
  
  • Marks function largely as they did in 3.5, thematically if not mechanically
  • Marks increase in functionality as they grow and you must get mark powers in order (Least -> Lesser ->Greater)
  • I haven't tried to force everything into one big clunky system. I think that's the route to massive-balance-issues (and the reason why 3.5 marks generally suck). There's one intro feat, called Least Dragonmark and everything after that is prerequisite based but otherwise organic.
  • While I hunger for attractive (or at least interesting) dragonmarked items and originally wanted the feats to give them out I've restrained myself. It's too much of a change in fluff to give everyone (or certain houses with "weak" marks) their own personal magical items.
  • Likewise, Favored in House is not in evidence. I think that the "social bonuses" thing was bad for a feat and it's an even poorer fit for 4e.
  • I've tried to make the cantrips useful (at least somewhat) at later levels and balance out the more powerful by forcing them to be sustained with minor actions.
  • I'd like the Least/Lesser mark abilities to improve if you "level up" you mark. The only actual implementation of this ability is present in the Mark of Finding though. That sort of thing makes stuff longer than I like. Some sort of slashed notation would probably be best. Example:
    Slow Fall
    Instant Interrupt: The distance you fall is reduced 20/40/100 feet.

​

For the record I use the word "Cantrip" below. Honestly some of the cantrips are probably massively abusive and would never work as wizard powers. Just think of them as at-will abilities.
And a lot of the cantrips are made up, extensions of the powers that I think the house gets at later levels.

Least Dragonmark [Dragonmarked]
Perquisite: appropriate Dragonmarked Race for your mark
Benefit

• House skill becomes trained. If already trained you receive an additional +3 bonus to that skill.
• select one House cantrip from your House entry. You may use it as an at will power.
• may use Dragonmarked items/rituals related to your mark

So the feat grants a small ability useful at will, as opposed to an ability of variable power that's utilizable once or twice a day.
I had an 'extra action point' thing/and a +2 to haggle/negotiate but I dropped it. The action point was probably "too good" and while I dearly loved the haggle/negotiate it's a fact that the mark can appear on someone who grew up outside of the merchant house.

Dragonmarked Houses
Mark of Detection
House: Medani
House Skill: Perception
House Cantrip: Detect Magic OR Detect Poison
Never understood why Medani got spot and Deneith got sense motive. But the fluff say it be so.

Mark of Finding
House: Tharashk
House Skill: Perception
House Cantrip: Sense Target OR ??

Sense Target
You may mark a target within 30 feet as standard action and maintain as a minor action. So long as you maintain this power you may sense the direction and distance to the target so long as you remain within 20 squares. If you have a lesser mark or greater mark the distance increases to 200 squares and 5 miles respectively. If you possess the ability to mark a target through another abilty you may combine it with this mark.
​

That last sentence is supposed to mean you mark someone with your fighters mark and you'll also get a "finding mark" attached for free. Awkward wording is my speci-al-ity.

Mark of Handling
House: Vadalis
House Skill: Knowledge Nature

House Cantrip: Speak with Animal OR ???
(speaking of unattractive choices... still without animal companions it's hard for me to think of anything that isn't weak or swingy (i.e. charm animal))

Mark of Healing
House: Jorasco
House Skill: Healing
House Cantrip: Touch of Rejuvenation OR Stabilize

Touch of Rejuvenation
Five minutes after this cantrip is used the target heals as if they had spent a healing surge. The target must resting (sit or lie down, taking no actions) for the full five minutes. Any action more strenuous than talking will cancel the cantrip with no effect. A person can benefit from Touch of Rejuvenation no more than once a day.
Stabilize
As a minor action you can automatically stabilize a dying person without a healing check. You must be adjacent to the person and able to touch them.​

Mark of Hospitality
House: Ghallanda
House skill: Diplomacy
House Cantrip: Unseen Servant OR Prestidigitation
Prestidigitation supposedly exists, and they'll keep unseen servant for sure. Anyway prestidigitation is supposed to really good and it's a very general power so....

Mark of Making
House: Cannith
House skill: Arcana (no more craft; anyway they make magic stuff, it's not like they're fixing people's shoes)
House Cantrip: Mending OR Rejuvenate Construct

Mending
You may temporarily repair a broken object as a standard action. You must have most of the pieces that made up the object with you. Lasts for a day. Only use on an object once before it is properly repaired.
I see this as being an anti-sunder power. Somebody broke your magic sword? The Mark of Making can put it back together for you, once, for a 24 period. Good at any level.
Rejuvenate Construct
Per Touch of Rejuvenation but on constructs​

.

Mark of Passage
House: Orien
House skill: Survival
House Cantrip: Quick feet OR Safe fall

Quick Feet
Cast as a minor action. You may move an extra 5 feet on any one move action you make this round.
Safe Fall
Instant Interrupt [Trigger: falling 10 feet or more]. Any distance you fall is reduced 20 feet.​

Mark of Scribing
House: Sivis
House skill: Insight (gnomes are sneaky! Sivis gnomes are -extra- sneaky. No? Ok. I got nothing then. Decipher Script isn't a knowledge...)
House Cantrip: Arcane Mark OR Message

Arcane Mark
Whatever it does in the book? (in theory this is useful for forging documents... but I don't think it fulfills the "attractive" thing.)
Message
ditto​

I confess to loving Sivis but having trouble thinking of anything good for their cantrips; hopefully message is still around... It sort of fits with the whole speaking stones thing.

Mark of the Sentinel
House: Deneith
House skill: Perception
House Cantrip: Low Light Vision OR Watch the threat

Low Light Vision
You have low light vision until the beginning of your next turn. You may maintain this power with a minor action.
Watch the Threat
Cast this spell as a standard action, maintain as a minor. For the duration of the spell you know if the target attacks anyone provided they are within 100 feet of you. If combat is started by your target then you receive a +4 bonus on initiative and the attacker can not receive combat advantage against you on the first round of combat.​

(Ok, obviously not the same powers they got from the old Least Mark of the Sentinel, but that stuff (shielding other people, etc) couldn't really be "pulled down a level".)

Mark of Shadow
House: Phiarlan OR Thuranni
House skill: Stealth
House Cantrip: Darkness OR ??

Darkness
Assume the opposite of light.​

(we know light exists and is a cantrip...
You could have like Mage Hand but with a shadow hand... urg. Must stop stretching before I hurt myself...)

Mark of Storm
House: Lyrandar
House skill: Athletics (pretty awesome for an adventurer)
House Cantrip: Light(?) OR Wind Hand

Wind Hand
Like mage hand but a gust of wind does it...​

(Again with the not having any idea what they should get. Light could be a St. Elmo's fire sorta glow... (Look... I only have three frigging cantrips to work with here...))

Mark of Warding
House: Kundarak
House skill: Perception
House Cantrip: Rapid Search OR Ward of Watching

Rapid Search
You can search a 10x10 area as a minor action. This cantrip can only be used on a given area once a day.
Ward of Watching
You can cause a magical ward to appear on any stationary object (wall, floor,). Provided you are within 6 squares of the ward you may make a perception check to notice any creature size S or greater entering a 5 burst (centered on the ward) designated when you create the ward. You may make this check even if you are distracted (asleep, etc). If you succeed you are aware of the creature and it's size. If you succeed and you are asleep you may automatically wake up.​

Ward of Watching seems so obvious to me in my head (the ward produces a cone where you have a chance to detect approaching creatures even if you're doing something else) but it's really hard to think of decent wording. It's basically a cheapo one direction alarm spell.

​

Then you just build the feats for each spell-like-ability you want available. The prerequisite and benefits line build an fully-tweakable emergent structure. The structure's only visible if the reader looks for it, and theoretically, each power is balanced to a reasonable degree of granularity (and thus can be "attractive" without worrying about being "too good")

Dragonmarked Spell-like Abilities (via feats)
Least Healing Touch [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Halfling, Least Mark of Healing, 3rd level
Benefit: You may cast Cure Light Wounds twice a day.

Lesser Healing Touch [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Halfling, Least Mark of Healing, 7th level
Benefit: You may cast Cure Serious Wounds twice a day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark.

Dimension Leap [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of Passage, 4th level
Benefit: You may use fey step (per eladrin) 1/encounter.

Expeditious Retreat [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of Passage, 6th level
Benefit: You may cast expeditious retreat 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark.

Eyebiter [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Elf, Least Mark of Shadow, 2nd level
Benefit: You may cast eyebite 1/encounter.

Identifier [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Half-orc, Least Mark of Finding, 2nd level
Benefit: You may cast identify 1/day. You are considered trained in Knowledge Arcana for the spells duration.

Mirror Defense
Prerequisites: Elf, Lesser Mark of Shadow, 10th level
Benefit: You may cast mirror image 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark.

Protect the Customer [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of the Sentinel, 2nd level
Benefit: You may use martyr's blessing (Paladin 2 utility power) 1/day. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark.

Stormlord [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Elf, Lesser Mark of Storm, 3 other dragonmarked feats; 12th level
Benefit: You may cast lightning bolt 1/encounter. You are considered to have a Greater Dragonmark.

Reinforce Construct [Dragonmark]
Prerequisites: Human, Least Mark of the Making, 4th level
Benefit: You grant a construct temporary hit points as if it had used a healing surge 2/day. These last for 5 minutes. You are considered to have a Lesser Dragonmark.
​

Some pros

• Each extra mark power is just a few lines.
• A lot easier for the DM to check instead of having to look for the power in several different places. The Dragonmarked Heir is just a mass of needless page flipping. Feats are one place, spells another, then other feats and PrCs modify your caster level. Ugh.
• Each spell like ability can be tailored to specifically balance it against other options (feats) and classes. Want to make sure Clerics are still "the best healer"? Clerics get CLW at 2nd level, but you can hold it until a later level for Jorasco without affecting any of the other components.
• Want to offer Lydandar lightning bolt, but be sure that they've specialized to get that power? Give have the stormlord feat require extra dragonmarked feats.
• It's easier to produce non-dragonmark related House abilities. Some houses, (i.e. Ghallanda, Sivis, Valadis) just aren't going to have lots of awesome powers. But you can more easily create House-only feats that would be attractive to them and balance them within this kind of system. (This point -may- be BS. Not sure yet.)
• At will powers are cool and easy to remember. They're flavorful but the system stops there and everything after it is specifically chosen by the player, so people don't wind up with lists of spell like abilities they don't want (or even remember they have).

Some cons

• It's -not- clear what taking the respective Least Mark Feat (AKA the intro feat) will ultimately provide your character. A novice player would have to wade through a lot of pages to try to get a handle on what you can get(This was the advantage of the 3.5 ECS layout. It was all there with a description of your mark). There would have to be a table somewhere laying it out.
• ??? -- obviously there's other stuff I'm just too close to the action to see it.

[sblock=Somewhat repetitive discussion of balance using the mark of passage]Least Dragonmark of Passage in 3.5 gave access to both expeditious retreat and dimension leap (basically the eladrin teleport power).
In 4e one is a racial power (every class can get it) and one is a wizard utility power 2 (only one specific class, one that generally doesn't have much movement and defense ability, gets it).
Specifically I don't think expeditious retreat has been balanced to allow a non-wizard to get it. I don't think it's broken, and a fighter/rogue/whatever should never get it (obviously they can with multiclassing). But it should probably cost a rogue/defender more to get expeditious retreat than feystep.
Obviously this is an example. I could be off. They could really be pretty much equal.
But, all these different powers aren't going to sit perfectly together in a few tiers. Tou want a system that allows the writer to balance each spell-like ability specifically.

Assuming that expeditious retreat is more powerful then you can easily bump the level requirement to saaay 6th (or 8th or whenever magic items start to provide similar powers or rogues get access to even better movement powers, whatever) without affecting feystep.

The "beauty"of an exception based system (if I understand it correctly) is can make simple modular changes to one part without worrying about how it's balanced vs. the rest of your universe. In this case the other 30 odd spells* that the feat gives access to.[sblock=*]Each "Dragonmark rank" granting a around 2-4 spells per house in 3.5. Plus all the "extra" stuff in Dragonmarked.

This, incidentally, is why dragonmarks generally sucked. Its impossible to balance "near the curve" with thirty different variables. You've got to haul way back on power to make sure that nothing becomes awesome.
And of course, the fact that power utility was so bizarre in 3.5. You'd have 4th level spells (firetrap) that really weren't as useful as 1st level spells (expeditious retreat) and you'd get access to them from the same 1st level feat. [/sblock][/sblock]

 

[jeffhartsell]

I'm not sold on feats granting bonus powers that are not at-will. I do agree that a feat should grant the effect of having a least, lesser, greater, aberrant, or siberys mark. However, a feat that grants a similar effect as an at-will power but makes it daily is okay. However, the greater marks had some butch powers. In those cases I am leaning towards power swap because the system is geared toward a PC only having X powers via class + items.

But I've not thought about it enough to create an elaborate system. I do like the direction Graf is headed. However, at first glance getting something like lightning bolt as a bonus power seems too good as a feat.

 

[Graf]

Obviously lightning bolt was never available from the original dragonmarks (though the gnomes got a bunch of pretty powerful symbols as I recall). Any we have no idea about the relative uberness of 4e lightning bolt.

It's just a way to show the possibilties of the system really. But the orginal dragonmark feats were developed before Complete Mage, Book of Nine Swords, PhB2 came out.

Personally, I don't buy the feat/power thing as a balance requirement. I could be wrong of course, but in 3.5 lets say that I make a feat whose prequiste was 15th level: Once a day you can use lightning bolt as a spell-like ability CL 7.
At 15th level you're getting your second to last feat. A CL 7 spell that does avg 25 points of elemental damage (reflex half) in a 60 ft line is not very impressive. Spellcasters already can do better than that, most rogues/artificers with UMD could just buy a scroll/wand /eternal wand. A fighter has a choice of much better feats in a PhB2 environment.
It's not going to fulfill requirements for a PrC (it's not like you can cast a 3rd level spell, it's just a spell-like ability)

I could be wrong and there may be some kind of "policy" that says "feats never give powers" or "never give out powers that don't scale with character level (so a fighter 15 would have to be casting at CL 15" or whatever, but I don't know that I can see evidence that it's unbalancing.