D&D 4E 4e, Non-Martial Characters, and Limited Feat Choices

What it really boils down to, once we've finally cut to the chase, is that Meta Magic Feats and Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus are gone for casters and that leave some folks with a selection of feats that don't boost their primary concern of casting Spells / Prayers without using melee weapons.

Of course, the 3.5 benefit of Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus was to allow you to leverage your static, level-based saving throw DCs against the escalating saving throw bonuses of class progression and mult-classing. In D&D 4.0 you Attack Bonus for Spells scale at the same rate as level-based bumps to AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defense. Essentially what you used to have to purchase for a feat and apply to a specific type of spell has been rolled into your basic character progression there - so it isn't a loss, but rather it simply doesn't qualify as something to do with a feat anymore.

Frankly, a lot of things you had to pay through the nose for with your feat slots have been rolled into your basic character class in 4E.

Meanwhile, the ability to Silence, Still, Empower, or Extend spells has been removed from the Heroic tier as far as I can see - though I typically saw little use of those Meta Magic feats outside of Rod powers in 4E in levels 1-7 (approximate parallel to Heroic Tier), just because Vancian Casting made your precious few higher-level spell slots hard to part with just to get a boosted 1st or 2nd level spell cast. Extended Lesser Vigor was pretty awesome once you added some splat-book love, though, and you had to respect an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement from day 1, though.

It seems more like the Cleric's feat selections are, by and large, irrelevant to his or her non-melee casting ability in the Heroic Tier in 4E.

I suppose you could use that Charisma to opt into Warlock powers and have some more blasting power, but going Cha & Con into Infernal Warlock pact stuff seems off-theme for the kind of Cleric you are designing unless you re-work the fluff into something along the "Smiting you with Hellfire and Brimstone" Inquistor. A "Sun-shine and puppies" cleric really doesn't have a whole lot of options off of pure Wis, Con, Cha builds - even taking Str 13 only gives you access to melee-centric multi-class options outside of the Warlord's extra healing and utility swap Level 4 feat. His Encounter and Daily powers are all melee hits.

One up-shot from original 3.5, though - you can retrain your old feat slots when you gain access to higher powers with stat bumps, level-ups, and tier progression.

Even as splat-books come out, if they want to keep things like Skill Training and Weapon Focus relevant they can't just start tossing out things like 3E Weapon Focus or Spell Focus for Heroic feats.

- Marty Lund
 

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I suppose you could use that Charisma to opt into Warlock powers and have some more blasting power, but going Cha & Con into Infernal Warlock pact stuff seems off-theme for the kind of Cleric you are designing unless you re-work the fluff into something along the "Smiting you with Hellfire and Brimstone" Inquistor. A "Sun-shine and puppies" cleric really doesn't have a whole lot of options off of pure Wis, Con, Cha builds - even taking Str 13 only gives you access to melee-centric multi-class options outside of the Warlord's extra healing and utility swap Level 4 feat. His Encounter and Daily powers are all melee hits.

I actually went Star Pact and got a really interesting twist for my character's moon goddess that way--Sehanine is unaligned now instead of Chaotic Good, so a more mysterious otherworldly aspect seemed up her alley.
 

Rystil Arden said:
I actually went Star Pact and got a really interesting twist for my character's moon goddess that way--Sehanine is unaligned now instead of Chaotic Good, so a more mysterious otherworldly aspect seemed up her alley.

Well that's good news. It should give you a few more options (3 more, anyway) to play around with on the way up to 11 where Feats break out more. Ethereal Stride's Move Action utility looks like it could go very well with the Dwarven Minor Action second wind to give +4 to all defenses, a healing surge, and a teleport when in a tight spot - while at the same time still leaving your Standard open to attack.

That's the kind of defense mechanism a 3.X caster would give their right arm for at low levels - to the tune of 2 of your 3 feats by 4th level. Not bad.

It is too bad that Sehanine's Channel Divinity option seems so bad. If you could've used it whenever you or an ally made a nat-20 save it would probably be playable. I can't knock Alertness, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Shield Proficiency (Light), Skill Training, or Skill Focus though - they all have solid contributions to make to general survivability and utility even if they don't make you a better caster. (Well, I suppose Improved Initiative could make you cast 1 extra spell in an encounter ahead of the enemy, which is pretty good.)

- Marty Lund
 
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mlund said:
Well that's good news. It should give you a few more options (3 more, anyway) to play around with on the way up to 11 where Feats break out more. Ethereal Stride's Move Action utility looks like it could go very well with the Dwarven Minor Action second wind to give +4 to all defenses, a healing surge, and a teleport when in a tight spot - while at the same time still leaving your Standard open to attack.

That's the kind of defense mechanism a 3.X caster would give their right arm for at low levels - to the tune of 2 of your 3 feats by 4th level. Not bad.

It is too bad that Sehanine's Channel Divinity option seems so bad. If you could've used it whenever you or an ally made a nat-20 save it would probably be playable. I can't knock Alertness, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Shield Proficiency (Light), Skill Training, or Skill Focus though - they all have solid contributions to make to general survivability and utility even if they don't make you a better caster. (Well, I suppose Improved Initiative could make you cast 1 extra spell in an encounter ahead of the enemy, which is pretty good.)

- Marty Lund
Multiclassing was my first level feat (as I mentioned earlier). I mostly took Warlock multiclass because the flavour fit and because it was strictly better than the choice I had settled on as my favourite of the regular feat list (Skill Training Bluff).

Hmm, yes, Ethereal Stride is very nice (you actually buy Utility at 8th, not 4th though), but I can't help but feel Bastion of Health is going to be necessary--I'm a major heal monkey and I always run out of Word of Healing, and Bastion is basically one more of them per battle (except you can use Bastion and Word on the same round if necessary). The only other choice for removal would be Shield of Faith, and having a party buff that lasts all encounter seems useful, particularly since no one in the group has anything they use much that grants power bonuses to AC. Perhaps things will change by the time I hit level 8, but the utilities just seem too valuable to swap. Like, even if they gave me that option and it didn't cost a feat to do it, I'm not sure if I would. You know what I mean?

Thank goodness it doesn't require Novice Power--that was a smart move on the designers' part, since often the utility will be much more immediately useful when multiclassing than an attack might. I can't find any viable choice for Novice Power. On the other hand, though I'm quite attached to my level 1 Daily and saw some sweet level 5 dailies, I dislike the level 9 Cleric dailies (though ironically I like Divine Power for the buff it provides me and the party enough to consider taking it and ignoring the part where it makes a worthless Strength attack) enough to consider swapping out for something that would amuse me like Summons of Khirad.
 

mlund said:
It is too bad that Sehanine's Channel Divinity option seems so bad. If you could've used it whenever you or an ally made a nat-20 save it would probably be playable.

That's one option. It would still be a bit swingy to my taste (and of course, better the larger your group is, and mine is rather small). Here are some others I thought of--in all cases, the key was to preserve the flavour of a reversal on a condition while making the feat actually usable:

Sehanine's Reversal could trigger on any successful save but require a Wis vs Will attack to land the condition. It's not as likely to actually work when you use it, but you can use it more often, and having an ability you can use in more than 1% of encounters == more fun.

Sehanine's Reversal could trigger on a Natural 1 on any save (including death saves) and change the Natural 1 into a Natural 20 if you spend the Channel Divinity. The main use of this would be to double your chances of popping back into the fight on death saves. It's not great, granted, but it's playable.

Sehanine's Reversal could trigger when you make a saving throw and allow all allies in a small range to also attempt an immediate saving throw if you spend the Channel Divinity. It's not terribly better at helping allies than just using the at-will attack that grants an ally a save except in a few corner cases where most of the party is suffering from a condition, but if it's an immediate reaction, it can still allow other actions, so it could be alright.
 

mlund said:
What it really boils down to, once we've finally cut to the chase, is that Meta Magic Feats and Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus are gone for casters and that leave some folks with a selection of feats that don't boost their primary concern of casting Spells / Prayers without using melee weapons.
I like the cut of your jib! I was thinking much the same thing as I read through the thread.
 

helium3 said:
The other thing I noticed (and not related to feats) was that you're essentially penalized for the entire "career" of your character for going "against type." The two characters that went against type (the elf paladin and the hobgoblin fighter) had lower ability scores in their primary stats than the other characters that were not against type. As near as I can tell, an elven paladin will ALWAYS have a lower primary score than a dragonborn paladin simply because the dragonborn paladin gets a stat bump in the same stat that is the class's primary score.
As far as I can tell, the point of not having racial penalties is to narrow the gap between characters going traditional and characters going against type. Using the same array, assigned the same way, a character whose race matches their class will have a score 2 points higher than someone whose race/class combo doesn't line up so nicely.

Contrast with 3rd edition, where someone playing against type is down 4 points(2 for the traditional's bonus and 2 for their own penalty). Playing against type still isn't optimal, but it is much more viable than it used to be.

Rystil Arden said:
That's an interesting idea--Question before people have at it: Do you think that Jyrantha was intentionally gimped? Because I find her quite effective (so not gimped), and if she is somehow gimped, it certainly wasn't intentional. Honestly, the only thing about her that's annoying is that 4e has so few feat choices. As far as her build, I'm really loving the way she interacts with powers, items, and skills. I could play her without feats if I absolutely had to and I think she could still do her job with this build, it's just quite annoying that this is essentially what I may have to do.
Nah, she wasn't gimped. The one thing I notice when I look at her build, though, is that both stats that improve reflex defence are on the low side. If either of those were up at the 13+ level, you'd have a couple more feat options as well as some better defenses.

And I didn't start taking notes until about halfway through the thread, but I seem to recall the mention of your party fleeing from an Irontooth? And a Fast Runner feat, that worked only on charging and running? Sounds to me like Fast Runner might be a reasonable option for the purposes of fleeing.

On the topic of the Dodge Giants feat, I'd like to say that even if the primary foes are the small and medium sized humanoids you mentioned, I'd be very surprised if there weren't at least some large monsters in there. It is a whole dungeon, after all.
 

theNater said:
As far as I can tell, the point of not having racial penalties is to narrow the gap between characters going traditional and characters going against type. Using the same array, assigned the same way, a character whose race matches their class will have a score 2 points higher than someone whose race/class combo doesn't line up so nicely.

Contrast with 3rd edition, where someone playing against type is down 4 points(2 for the traditional's bonus and 2 for their own penalty). Playing against type still isn't optimal, but it is much more viable than it used to be.

Fair enough.

But, given how much huffing and puffing was done in the designer blogs and the marketing material about removing restrictions, I would've thought they'd done away with it entirely. They slaughtered so many sacred cows at this point, why bother giving the various races ability score adjustments at all? Why not just say that all the common character races are equally likely to have high and low scores of different types and use powers to differentiate them?
 


helium3 said:
But, given how much huffing and puffing was done in the designer blogs and the marketing material about removing restrictions, I would've thought they'd done away with it entirely. They slaughtered so many sacred cows at this point, why bother giving the various races ability score adjustments at all? Why not just say that all the common character races are equally likely to have high and low scores of different types and use powers to differentiate them?

Case in point: Tiefling Ranger vs Elf Ranger.

The Tiefling is actually 4 points down from the Elf by playing an off-class. Elf gets +2 to 2 core stats, Tiefling gets +2 to 2 dump stats. Works out the same as an Elf Barbarian in 3e, but the +2 dex arguably helps a Barb slightly more than int or cha helps a ranger...
 

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